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[149.14.88.106]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id az17-20020a05600c601100b003dd1bd0b915sm14770405wmb.22.2023.02.21.04.00.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Feb 2023 04:00:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2023 13:00:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.13.0 Content-Language: en-US To: John Snow Cc: Markus Armbruster , qemu-devel@nongnu.org, Peter Maydell , Cleber Rosa , =?UTF-8?Q?Philippe_Mathieu-Daud=c3=a9?= , Daniel Berrange , Beraldo Leal , Michael Roth , Wainer dos Santos Moschetta , Paolo Bonzini , qemu-block@nongnu.org, Hanna Reitz , =?UTF-8?Q?Alex_Benn=c3=a9e?= , Kevin Wolf References: <20230210003147.1309376-1-jsnow@redhat.com> <87v8k2ycjb.fsf@pond.sub.org> From: Thomas Huth Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 0/7] Python: Drop support for Python 3.6 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=170.10.129.124; envelope-from=thuth@redhat.com; helo=us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com X-Spam_score_int: -21 X-Spam_score: -2.2 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.09, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org On 20/02/2023 20.56, John Snow wrote: > On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 1:16 AM Thomas Huth wrote: >> >> On 17/02/2023 21.46, John Snow wrote: >>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 5:58 AM Thomas Huth wrote: >>>> >>>> On 15/02/2023 20.05, Markus Armbruster wrote: >>>>> The discussion under PATCH 6 makes me think there's a bit of confusion >>>>> about the actual impact of dropping support for Python 3.6. Possibly >>>>> because it's spelled out in the commit message of PATCH 7. Let me >>>>> summarize it in one sentence: >>>>> >>>>> *** All supported host systems continue to work *** >>>>> >>>>> Evidence: CI remains green. >>>> >>>> The CI remains green since one of the patches disabled the building of the >>>> docs on CentOS 8. That's not how I'd describe "continue to work", at least >>>> not in the same extend as before. >>>> >>>>> On some supported host systems, different packages need to be installed. >>>>> On CentOS 8, for instance, we need to install Python 3.8.13 or 3.9.16 >>>>> instead of 3.6.8. Let me stress again: same repository, different >>>>> package. No downsides I can see. >>>>> >>>>> The *one* exception is Sphinx on CentOS 8. CentOS 8 does not ship a >>>>> version of Sphinx that works with Python 3.7 or newer. This series >>>>> proposes to simply stop building the docs there, unless the user >>>>> provides a suitable version of Sphinx (which is easy enough with pip). >>>> >>>> I think we've all understood that. The thing that you obviously did not >>>> understood: This breaks our support statement. >>>> I'm pretty sure that you could also build the whole QEMU suite successfully >>>> on an ancient CentOS 7 or Ubuntu 18.04 system if you manually install a >>>> newer version of GCC and some of the required libraries first. But that's >>>> not how we understand our support statement. >>>> >>>> Sure, you can argue that you can use "pip install" to get a newer version of >>>> Sphinx on RHEL 8 / CentOS 8 to continue building the docs there - but is >>>> that really that much different from installing a newer version of GCC and >>>> libraries on an ancient distro that we do not officially support anymore? >>>> I'd say no. You also have to consider that not every build host has access >>>> to the internet, maybe some companies only have an internal mirror of the >>>> distro packages in their intranet (I remember some discussion about such a >>>> case in the past) - so while you were perfectly fine to build the whole of >>>> QEMU on a CentOS 8 there before this change, you could now not build parts >>>> of QEMU anymore there due to the missing possibility to run "pip install" >>>> without full internet connection. >>> >>> There are good points elsewhere in this thread and I am taking notes, >>> but this critique caught my eye as something I was not specifically >>> planning around, so I wanted to get an elaboration here if I may. >>> >>> Do we have a support statement for this? I find this critique somewhat >>> surprising -- If we don't have internet, how did we get the other 20 >>> to 30 dependencies needed to build QEMU? To what extent are we >>> *required* to preserve a build that works without internet access? >> >> It's not written in stone, but I saw it this way: If I have a complete >> mirror of a distro repository in my intrAnet, I can use that mirror to set >> up a QEMU build host system that has no access to the internet. Or maybe >> think of a DVD image(s) with all distro packages that you use to install a >> host without network access (and you copy the QEMU tarball there via USB >> stick). I think it's not that uncommon to have such scenarios out there. >> >> For example, do you remember that SDL 1.2 discussion a some years ago? See: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/qemu-devel@nongnu.org/msg631628.html >> >> It was not exactly the same situation, since those folks were even unable to >> install a SDL2-devel package on their pre-installed hosts, though it was >> theoretically available as an update in their distro, but I think it gives >> an impression of what people are using and expecting out there... (and no, >> I'm not happy with this, I'd also rather love if we could move faster in the >> QEMU project sometimes). >> >> Thomas > > Well, in this case I believe our support policy generally is written > to require a fully up-to-date version of the LTS distros, e.g. we > don't really test against "release day" 16.04, in the same way we > don't offer support for RHEL 8.0, just the latest point release. Yes, sure, that's what I meant with "not exactly the same situation" ... it was just an example of people trying to compile QEMU offline. > I think really all we need is the ability to know a priori what we > need to build QEMU before going offline without any last second > surprises during configure, make, or make check. Right? I think it should be OK with the patch that Paolo suggested for the support policy and maybe a note somewhere that you have to make sure to install a newer Sphinx with pip in case you still want to build the docs on older enterprise distros... Thomas