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From: Daniel Vetter <daniel@ffwll.ch>
To: Chris Wilson <chris@chris-wilson.co.uk>
Cc: linux-rdma <linux-rdma@vger.kernel.org>,
	"Daniel Vetter" <daniel.vetter@ffwll.ch>,
	"Intel Graphics Development" <intel-gfx@lists.freedesktop.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	"DRI Development" <dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org>,
	"moderated list:DMA BUFFER SHARING FRAMEWORK"
	<linaro-mm-sig@lists.linaro.org>,
	"Thomas Hellstrom" <thomas.hellstrom@intel.com>,
	"amd-gfx mailing list" <amd-gfx@lists.freedesktop.org>,
	"Daniel Vetter" <daniel.vetter@intel.com>,
	"Linux Media Mailing List" <linux-media@vger.kernel.org>,
	"Christian König" <christian.koenig@amd.com>,
	"Mika Kuoppala" <mika.kuoppala@intel.com>
Subject: Re: [Intel-gfx] [PATCH 03/18] dma-fence: basic lockdep annotations
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 11:43:09 +0200
Message-ID: <20200619094309.GT20149@phenom.ffwll.local> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <159255801588.7737.4425728073225310839@build.alporthouse.com>

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 10:13:35AM +0100, Chris Wilson wrote:
> Quoting Daniel Vetter (2020-06-19 09:51:59)
> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 10:25 AM Chris Wilson <chris@chris-wilson.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Forcing a generic primitive to always be part of the same global map is
> > > horrible.
> > 
> > And  no concrete example or reason for why that's not possible.
> > Because frankly it's not horrible, this is what upstream is all about:
> > Shared concepts, shared contracts, shared code.
> > 
> > The proposed patches might very well encode the wrong contract, that's
> > all up for discussion. But fundamentally questioning that we need one
> > is missing what upstream is all about.
> 
> Then I have not clearly communicated, as my opinion is not that
> validation is worthless, but that the implementation is enshrining a
> global property on a low level primitive that prevents it from being
> used elsewhere. And I want to replace completion [chains] with fences, and
> bio with fences, and closures with fences, and what other equivalencies
> there are in the kernel. The fence is as central a locking construct as
> struct completion and deserves to be a foundational primitive provided
> by kernel/ used throughout all drivers for discrete problem domains.
> 
> This is narrowing dma_fence whereby adding
> 	struct lockdep_map *dma_fence::wait_map
> and annotating linkage, allows you to continue to specify that all
> dma_fence used for a particular purpose must follow common rules,
> without restricting the primitive for uses outside of this scope.

Somewhere else in this thread I had discussions with Jason Gunthorpe about
this topic. It might maybe change somewhat depending upon exact rules, but
his take is very much "I don't want dma_fence in rdma". Or pretty close to
that at least.

Similar discussions with habanalabs, they're using dma_fence internally
without any of the uapi. Discussion there has also now concluded that it's
best if they remove them, and simply switch over to a wait_queue or
completion like every other driver does.

The next round of the patches already have a paragraph to at least
somewhat limit how non-gpu drivers use dma_fence. And I guess actual
consensus might be pointing even more strongly at dma_fence being solely
something for gpus and closely related subsystem (maybe media) for syncing
dma-buf access.

So dma_fence as general replacement for completion chains I think just
wont happen.

What might make sense is if e.g. the lockdep annotations could be reused,
at least in design, for wait_queue or completion or anything else
really. I do think that has a fair chance compared to the automagic
cross-release annotations approach, which relied way too heavily on
guessing where barriers are. My experience from just a bit of playing
around with these patches here and discussing them with other driver
maintainers is that accurately deciding where critical sections start and
end is a job for humans only. And if you get it wrong, you will have a
false positive.

And you're indeed correct that if we'd do annotations for completions and
wait queues, then that would need to have a class per semantically
equivalent user, like we have lockdep classes for mutexes, not just one
overall.

But dma_fence otoh is something very specific, which comes with very
specific rules attached - it's not a generic wait_queue at all. Originally
it did start out as one even, but it is a very specialized wait_queue.

So there's imo two cases:

- Your completion is entirely orthogonal of dma_fences, and can never ever
  block a dma_fence. Don't use dma_fence for this, and no problem. It's
  just another wait_queue somewhere.

- Your completion can eventually, maybe through lots of convolutions and
  depdencies, block a dma_fence. In that case full dma_fence rules apply,
  and the only thing you can do with a custom annotation is make the rules
  even stricter. E.g. if a sub-timeline in the scheduler isn't allowed to
  take certain scheduler locks. But the userspace visible/published fence
  do take them, maybe as part of command submission or retirement.
  Entirely hypotethical, no idea any driver actually needs this.

Cheers, Daniel
-- 
Daniel Vetter
Software Engineer, Intel Corporation
http://blog.ffwll.ch
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  reply index

Thread overview: 106+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-06-04  8:12 [PATCH 00/18] dma-fence lockdep annotations, round 2 Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 01/18] mm: Track mmu notifiers in fs_reclaim_acquire/release Daniel Vetter
2020-06-10 12:01   ` Thomas Hellström (Intel)
2020-06-10 12:25     ` [Intel-gfx] " Daniel Vetter
2020-06-10 19:41   ` [PATCH] " Daniel Vetter
2020-06-11 14:29     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-21 17:42     ` Qian Cai
2020-06-21 18:07       ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-21 20:01         ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-21 22:09           ` Qian Cai
2020-06-23 16:17           ` Qian Cai
2020-06-23 22:13             ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-23 22:29               ` Qian Cai
2020-06-23 22:31       ` Dave Chinner
2020-06-23 22:36         ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-21 17:00   ` [PATCH 01/18] " Qian Cai
2020-06-21 17:28     ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-21 17:46       ` Qian Cai
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 02/18] dma-buf: minor doc touch-ups Daniel Vetter
2020-06-10 13:07   ` Thomas Hellström (Intel)
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 03/18] dma-fence: basic lockdep annotations Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:57   ` Thomas Hellström (Intel)
2020-06-04  9:21     ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  9:26       ` Chris Wilson
2020-06-04  9:36         ` [Intel-gfx] " Daniel Vetter
2020-06-05 13:29   ` [PATCH] " Daniel Vetter
2020-06-05 14:30     ` Thomas Hellström (Intel)
2020-06-11  9:57     ` Maarten Lankhorst
2020-06-10 14:21   ` [Intel-gfx] [PATCH 03/18] " Tvrtko Ursulin
2020-06-10 15:17     ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-11 10:36       ` Tvrtko Ursulin
2020-06-11 11:29         ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-11 14:29           ` Tvrtko Ursulin
2020-06-11 15:03             ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-11  8:00   ` Chris Wilson
2020-06-11  8:44     ` Dave Airlie
2020-06-11  9:01       ` [Intel-gfx] " Daniel Stone
2020-06-19  8:25         ` Chris Wilson
2020-06-19  8:51           ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-19  9:13             ` Chris Wilson
2020-06-19  9:43               ` Daniel Vetter [this message]
2020-06-19 13:12                 ` Chris Wilson
2020-06-22  9:16                   ` Daniel Vetter
2020-07-09  7:29                 ` Daniel Stone
2020-07-09  8:01                   ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-12  7:06   ` [PATCH] " Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 04/18] dma-fence: prime " Daniel Vetter
2020-06-11  7:30   ` [Linaro-mm-sig] " Thomas Hellström (Intel)
2020-06-11  8:34     ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-11 14:15       ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-11 23:35         ` Felix Kuehling
2020-06-12  5:11           ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-19 18:13           ` Jerome Glisse
2020-06-23  7:39           ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-23 18:44             ` Felix Kuehling
2020-06-23 19:02               ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-16 12:07         ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-16 14:53           ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-17  7:57             ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-17 15:29               ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-18 14:42                 ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-17  6:48           ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-17 15:28             ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-18 15:00               ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-18 17:23                 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-19  7:22                   ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-19 11:39                     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-19 15:06                       ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-19 15:15                         ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-19 16:19                           ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-19 17:23                             ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-19 18:09                               ` Jerome Glisse
2020-06-19 18:18                                 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-19 19:48                                   ` Felix Kuehling
2020-06-19 19:55                                     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-19 20:03                                       ` Felix Kuehling
2020-06-19 20:31                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2020-06-22 11:46                                         ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-22 20:15                                           ` Jerome Glisse
2020-06-23  0:02                                             ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-19 20:10                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2020-06-19 20:43                                     ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-19 20:59                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2020-06-23  0:05                                     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-19 19:11                                 ` Alex Deucher
2020-06-19 19:30                                   ` Felix Kuehling
2020-06-19 19:40                                     ` Jerome Glisse
2020-06-19 19:51                                     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-06-12  7:01   ` [PATCH] " Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 05/18] drm/vkms: Annotate vblank timer Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 06/18] drm/vblank: Annotate with dma-fence signalling section Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 07/18] drm/atomic-helper: Add dma-fence annotations Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 08/18] drm/amdgpu: add dma-fence annotations to atomic commit path Daniel Vetter
2020-06-23 10:51   ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 09/18] drm/scheduler: use dma-fence annotations in main thread Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 10/18] drm/amdgpu: use dma-fence annotations in cs_submit() Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 11/18] drm/amdgpu: s/GFP_KERNEL/GFP_ATOMIC in scheduler code Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 12/18] drm/amdgpu: DC also loves to allocate stuff where it shouldn't Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 13/18] drm/amdgpu/dc: Stop dma_resv_lock inversion in commit_tail Daniel Vetter
2020-06-05  8:30   ` Pierre-Eric Pelloux-Prayer
2020-06-05 12:41     ` Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 14/18] drm/scheduler: use dma-fence annotations in tdr work Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 15/18] drm/amdgpu: use dma-fence annotations for gpu reset code Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 16/18] Revert "drm/amdgpu: add fbdev suspend/resume on gpu reset" Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 17/18] drm/amdgpu: gpu recovery does full modesets Daniel Vetter
2020-06-04  8:12 ` [PATCH 18/18] drm/i915: Annotate dma_fence_work Daniel Vetter

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