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From: Tetsuo Handa <penguin-kernel@i-love.sakura.ne.jp>
To: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>,
	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@xmission.com>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>,
	David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>,
	Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>,
	Masahiro Yamada <yamada.masahiro@socionext.com>,
	Gary Lin <GLin@suse.com>, Bruno Meneguele <bmeneg@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH] net/bpfilter: Remove this broken and apparently unmantained
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:57:40 +0900
Message-ID: <62859212-df69-b913-c1e0-cd2e358d1adf@i-love.sakura.ne.jp> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200611233134.5vofl53dj5wpwp5j@ast-mbp.dhcp.thefacebook.com>

On 2020/06/12 8:31, Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 04:12:29PM -0500, Eric W. Biederman wrote:
>> We probably also need to have a conversation about why this
>> functionality is a better choice that using a compiled in initramfs,
>> such as can be had by setting CONFIG_INITRAMFS_SOURCE.

I agree. CONFIG_INITRAMFS_SOURCE or call_usermodehelper() should be fine.

>> Even with this write up and the conversations so far I don't understand
>> what problem fork_usermode_blob is supposed to be solving.  Is there
>> anything kernel version dependent about bpf_lsm?  For me the primary
>> justification of something like fork_usermode_blob is something that is
>> for all practical purposes a kernel module but it just happens to run in
>> usermode.
> 
> that's what it is. It's a kernel module that runs in user space.
> 

How can the code running in the userspace memory be protected? Like you said

  It's nice to be able to compile that blob with -g and be able to 'gdb -p' into it.
  That works and very convenient when it comes to debugging. Compare that to debugging
  a kernel module!

, the userspace memory can be easily interfered from userspace. The kernel module
running in kernel space is protected (unless methods like /dev/{mem,kmem} are used)
but the kernel module running in user space is not protected.

You said

  What you're saying is tomoyo doesn't trust kernel modules that are built-in
  as part of vmlinux and doesn't trust vmlinux build.

but the word 'trust' has multiple aspects. One of aspects is "can the program
contain malicious code?" which would be mitigated by cryptographic signing
technology. But another aspect is "does the program contain vulnerability or
bugs?" which would be mitigated by updating programs as soon as possible.
Yet another aspect is "is the program protected from interference?" which would
be mitigated by enforcing sandbox like seccomp. But to enforce it, we need
information for identifying what does the code need to do.

We might need to invent built-in "protected userspace" because existing
"unprotected userspace" is not trustworthy enough to run kernel modules.
That's not just inventing fork_usermode_blob().



>> Strictly speaking I am also aware of the issue that the kernel has to
>> use set_fs(KERNEL_DS) to allow argv and envp to exist in kernel space
>> instead of userspace.  That needs to be fixed as well, but for all
>> kernel uses of exec.  So any work fixing fork_usermode_blob can ignore
>> that issue.
> 
> well, this is the problem of usermodehelper_exec.
> usermode_blob doesn't use argv/envp.
> They could be NULL for all practical purpose.
> 

That's what TOMOYO LSM does not like. You said

  tomoyo does path name resolution as a string and using that for security?
  I'm looking at tomoyo_realpath*() and tomoyo_pathcmp(). Ouch.
  Path based security is anti pattern of security.

but, like Casey mentioned, pathnames/argv/envp etc. represents *user intentions*
for controlling what that code can do.

A method for allow anonymously running arbitrary code in userspace memory (which
can be interfered) is so painful. I won't be able to trust kernel modules running
in userspace memory.

  reply index

Thread overview: 194+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <20200329005528.xeKtdz2A0%akpm@linux-foundation.org>
     [not found] ` <13fb3ab7-9ab1-b25f-52f2-40a6ca5655e1@i-love.sakura.ne.jp>
     [not found]   ` <202006051903.C44988B@keescook>
2020-06-06 19:20     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-06 20:19       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-06 22:33         ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-07  1:49           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-07  2:19             ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-07 16:09               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-08 16:20               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 16:40                 ` Greg KH
2020-06-08 18:35                 ` Kees Cook
2020-06-09  1:26                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09 15:37                     ` Kees Cook
2020-06-09 19:51                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07  2:31             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-08 16:23               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 23:22                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-09  1:28                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09  5:29                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-09 22:32                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09 23:30                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10  0:05                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10  3:08                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10  3:32                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10  7:30                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10 16:24                                   ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-09 20:02                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-09 23:56                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10 21:12                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-11 23:31                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-12  0:57                         ` Tetsuo Handa [this message]
2020-06-13  3:38                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-13  4:22                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-13 14:08                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-13 15:33                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-13 16:14                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-14 14:51                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-16  1:55                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-16 16:21                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-23 18:04                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-23 18:35                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-23 18:53                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-23 19:40                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24  1:51                                           ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24  4:00                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24  4:58                                               ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24  6:39                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24  7:05                                                   ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24 15:41                                                     ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-24 17:54                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 19:48                                                         ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-24  6:05                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 14:18                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 12:13                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-24 14:26                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 23:14                                               ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25  1:35                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-25  6:38                                                   ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25  9:57                                                     ` Greg KH
2020-06-25 11:03                                                       ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 12:07                                                         ` Greg KH
2020-06-25 14:21                                                           ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 19:34                                                           ` David Miller
2020-06-26  1:36                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-26  1:51                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26  4:58                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26  5:41                                                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26  6:20                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26  6:39                                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26 12:51                                                               ` [PATCH 00/14] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:53                                                                 ` [PATCH 01/14] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:53                                                                 ` [PATCH 02/14] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:54                                                                 ` [PATCH 03/14] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:54                                                                 ` [PATCH 04/14] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:55                                                                 ` [PATCH 05/14] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 14:17                                                                   ` kernel test robot
2020-06-26 16:22                                                                   ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26 16:45                                                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27  1:26                                                                       ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-27  4:21                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27  4:36                                                                           ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26 12:55                                                                 ` [PATCH 06/14] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 15:37                                                                   ` Kees Cook
2020-06-26 16:31                                                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:56                                                                 ` [PATCH 07/14] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:56                                                                 ` [PATCH 08/14] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:57                                                                 ` [PATCH 09/14] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:57                                                                 ` [PATCH 10/14] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:58                                                                 ` [PATCH 11/14] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:58                                                                 ` [PATCH 12/14] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:59                                                                 ` [PATCH 13/14] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:59                                                                 ` [PATCH 14/14] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 13:48                                                                 ` [PATCH 00/14] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:55                                                                   ` [PATCH v2 00/15] " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:56                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 01/15] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:57                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 02/15] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:57                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 03/15] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:59                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 04/15] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:00                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 05/15] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:58                                                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2020-07-01 17:18                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-01 17:42                                                                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29 20:01                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 06/15] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:02                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 07/15] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:03                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 08/15] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:03                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 09/15] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:04                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 10/15] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30  5:43                                                                       ` Christoph Hellwig
2020-06-30 12:14                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 13:38                                                                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2020-06-30 14:28                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:55                                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29 20:05                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 11/15] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:06                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 12/15] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:06                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 13/15] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:07                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 14/15] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:08                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 15/15] umd: Stop using split_argv Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 22:12                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 00/15] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30  1:13                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30  6:16                                                                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 12:29                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 13:21                                                                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-02 13:08                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 13:40                                                                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-02 16:02                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-03 13:19                                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-03 22:25                                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04  6:57                                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-08  4:46                                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:52                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-01 17:12                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:40                                                                     ` [PATCH v3 00/16] " Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 01/16] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 02/16] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 03/16] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 04/16] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 05/16] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 06/16] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 07/16] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 08/16] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 09/16] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 10/16] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08  6:35                                                                         ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-08 12:41                                                                           ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-08 13:08                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08 13:32                                                                               ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-12 21:02                                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 11/16] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 12/16] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 13/16] exit: Factor thread_group_exited out of pidfd_poll Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-03 20:30                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-03 21:37                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04  0:03                                                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-04 15:50                                                                             ` Christian Brauner
2020-07-07 17:09                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08  0:05                                                                                 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-07-08  3:50                                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04 16:00                                                                         ` Christian Brauner
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 14/16] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 15/16] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 16/16] umd: Stop using split_argv Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 23:51                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 00/16] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-09 22:05                                                                       ` [merged][PATCH " Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-14 19:42                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-08  5:20                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 00/15] " Luis Chamberlain
2020-06-26 14:10                                                                 ` [PATCH 00/14] " Greg Kroah-Hartman
2020-06-26 16:40                                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26 17:17                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 18:22                                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-27 11:38                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-27 12:59                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27 13:57                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-28 19:44                                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29  2:20                                                                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-29 20:19                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30  6:28                                                                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 12:32                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:48                                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30 21:54                                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 21:57                                                                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30 22:58                                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 12:56                                                 ` [RFC][PATCH] net/bpfilter: Remove this broken and apparently unmantained Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 13:25                                                   ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2020-06-25 14:26                                                     ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 14:36                                                       ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 15:21                                                       ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 16:03                                                         ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 16:06                                                         ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-26 11:30                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07  5:58             ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07 11:56               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-08 16:35                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 16:33               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-06 20:43       ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-06-07 15:51         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07  1:13       ` Tetsuo Handa

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