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From: Toshiaki Makita <toshiaki.makita1@gmail.com>
To: "Toke Høiland-Jørgensen" <toke@redhat.com>,
	"John Fastabend" <john.fastabend@gmail.com>,
	"Alexei Starovoitov" <ast@kernel.org>,
	"Daniel Borkmann" <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	"Martin KaFai Lau" <kafai@fb.com>,
	"Song Liu" <songliubraving@fb.com>, "Yonghong Song" <yhs@fb.com>,
	"David S. Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>,
	"Jakub Kicinski" <jakub.kicinski@netronome.com>,
	"Jesper Dangaard Brouer" <hawk@kernel.org>,
	"Jamal Hadi Salim" <jhs@mojatatu.com>,
	"Cong Wang" <xiyou.wangcong@gmail.com>,
	"Jiri Pirko" <jiri@resnulli.us>,
	"Pablo Neira Ayuso" <pablo@netfilter.org>,
	"Jozsef Kadlecsik" <kadlec@netfilter.org>,
	"Florian Westphal" <fw@strlen.de>,
	"Pravin B Shelar" <pshelar@ovn.org>
Cc: netdev@vger.kernel.org, bpf@vger.kernel.org,
	William Tu <u9012063@gmail.com>,
	Stanislav Fomichev <sdf@fomichev.me>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 00/15] xdp_flow: Flow offload to XDP
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 16:32:08 +0900	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <640418c3-54ba-cd62-304f-fd9f73f25a42@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87zhhhnmg8.fsf@toke.dk>

Hi Toke,

Sorry for the delay.

On 2019/10/31 21:12, Toke Høiland-Jørgensen wrote:
> Toshiaki Makita <toshiaki.makita1@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On 2019/10/28 0:21, Toke Høiland-Jørgensen wrote:
>>> Toshiaki Makita <toshiaki.makita1@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> Yeah, you are right that it's something we're thinking about. I'm not
>>>>> sure we'll actually have the bandwidth to implement a complete solution
>>>>> ourselves, but we are very much interested in helping others do this,
>>>>> including smoothing out any rough edges (or adding missing features) in
>>>>> the core XDP feature set that is needed to achieve this :)
>>>>
>>>> I'm very interested in general usability solutions.
>>>> I'd appreciate if you could join the discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Here the basic idea of my approach is to reuse HW-offload infrastructure
>>>> in kernel.
>>>> Typical networking features in kernel have offload mechanism (TC flower,
>>>> nftables, bridge, routing, and so on).
>>>> In general these are what users want to accelerate, so easy XDP use also
>>>> should support these features IMO. With this idea, reusing existing
>>>> HW-offload mechanism is a natural way to me. OVS uses TC to offload
>>>> flows, then use TC for XDP as well...
>>>
>>> I agree that XDP should be able to accelerate existing kernel
>>> functionality. However, this does not necessarily mean that the kernel
>>> has to generate an XDP program and install it, like your patch does.
>>> Rather, what we should be doing is exposing the functionality through
>>> helpers so XDP can hook into the data structures already present in the
>>> kernel and make decisions based on what is contained there. We already
>>> have that for routing; L2 bridging, and some kind of connection
>>> tracking, are obvious contenders for similar additions.
>>
>> Thanks, adding helpers itself should be good, but how does this let users
>> start using XDP without having them write their own BPF code?
> 
> It wouldn't in itself. But it would make it possible to write XDP
> programs that could provide the same functionality; people would then
> need to run those programs to actually opt-in to this.
> 
> For some cases this would be a simple "on/off switch", e.g.,
> "xdp-route-accel --load <dev>", which would install an XDP program that
> uses the regular kernel routing table (and the same with bridging). We
> are planning to collect such utilities in the xdp-tools repo - I am
> currently working on a simple packet filter:
> https://github.com/xdp-project/xdp-tools/tree/xdp-filter

Let me confirm how this tool adds filter rules.
Is this adding another commandline tool for firewall?

If so, that is different from my goal.
Introducing another commandline tool will require people to learn more.

My proposal is to reuse kernel interface to minimize such need for learning.

Toshiaki Makita

> For more advanced use cases (such as OVS), the application packages will
> need to integrate and load their own XDP support. We should encourage
> that, and help smooth out any rough edges (such as missing features)
> needed for this to happen.
> 
> -Toke
> 

  reply	other threads:[~2019-11-11  7:32 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 58+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-10-18  4:07 Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 01/15] xdp_flow: Add skeleton of XDP based flow offload driver Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 02/15] xdp_flow: Add skeleton bpf program for XDP Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 03/15] bpf: Add API to get program from id Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 04/15] xdp: Export dev_check_xdp and dev_change_xdp Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 05/15] xdp_flow: Attach bpf prog to XDP in kernel after UMH loaded program Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 06/15] xdp_flow: Prepare flow tables in bpf Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 07/15] xdp_flow: Add flow entry insertion/deletion logic in UMH Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 08/15] xdp_flow: Add flow handling and basic actions in bpf prog Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 09/15] xdp_flow: Implement flow replacement/deletion logic in xdp_flow kmod Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 10/15] xdp_flow: Add netdev feature for enabling flow offload to XDP Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 11/15] xdp_flow: Implement redirect action Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 12/15] xdp_flow: Implement vlan_push action Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 13/15] bpf, selftest: Add test for xdp_flow Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 14/15] i40e: prefetch xdp->data before running XDP prog Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18  4:07 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 15/15] bpf, hashtab: Compare keys in long Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-18 15:22 ` [RFC PATCH v2 bpf-next 00/15] xdp_flow: Flow offload to XDP John Fastabend
2019-10-21  7:31   ` Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-22 16:54     ` John Fastabend
2019-10-22 17:45       ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-10-24  4:27         ` John Fastabend
2019-10-24 10:13           ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-10-27 13:19             ` Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-27 15:21               ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-10-28  3:16                 ` David Ahern
2019-10-28  8:36                   ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-10-28 10:08                     ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
2019-10-28 19:07                       ` David Ahern
2019-10-28 19:05                     ` David Ahern
2019-10-31  0:18                 ` Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-31 12:12                   ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-11-11  7:32                     ` Toshiaki Makita [this message]
2019-11-12 16:53                       ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-11-14 10:11                         ` Toshiaki Makita
2019-11-14 12:41                           ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-11-18  6:41                             ` Toshiaki Makita
2019-11-18 10:20                               ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-11-22  5:42                                 ` Toshiaki Makita
2019-11-22 11:54                                   ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-11-25 10:18                                     ` Toshiaki Makita
2019-11-25 13:03                                       ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-11-18 10:28                               ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-10-27 13:13         ` Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-27 15:24           ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-10-27 19:17             ` David Miller
2019-10-31  0:32               ` Toshiaki Makita
2019-11-12 17:50                 ` William Tu
2019-11-14 10:06                   ` Toshiaki Makita
2019-11-14 17:09                     ` William Tu
2019-11-15 13:16                       ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2019-11-12 17:38             ` William Tu
2019-10-23 14:11       ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2019-10-24  4:38         ` John Fastabend
2019-10-24 17:05           ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2019-10-27 13:27         ` Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-27 13:06       ` Toshiaki Makita
2019-10-21 11:23 ` Björn Töpel
2019-10-21 11:47   ` Toshiaki Makita

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