From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=3.0 tests=DKIMWL_WL_HIGH,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86067C43331 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:43:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5953520772 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:43:04 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=redhat.com header.i=@redhat.com header.b="UmB7Dqz8" Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1726313AbgCYKnE (ORCPT ); Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:43:04 -0400 Received: from us-smtp-delivery-74.mimecast.com ([216.205.24.74]:27724 "EHLO us-smtp-delivery-74.mimecast.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1726139AbgCYKnD (ORCPT ); Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:43:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhat.com; s=mimecast20190719; t=1585132982; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=PsY1afjqXUvOhhLtl0Ou26hpywvwcP5IhlNh1OY1bj4=; b=UmB7Dqz8emVQnIVvB4pYMGVDrPeNULKLovT0rnDoNyDaAdXSyZ/yf/6hMV1ojBkJM4gq33 AZxFKFONVVOfWf+/vJAYGTsniEwP5fBql7yXCkDB+uS7tC7g3o9MYrnTpuoFXjnWsuh3ga dHSmlarjfLYw5Vox8DwVUnqEW9Tvpko= Received: from mail-lf1-f72.google.com (mail-lf1-f72.google.com [209.85.167.72]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id us-mta-99-gvpUC5oJMqyvYe_3h7Fmow-1; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:43:00 -0400 X-MC-Unique: gvpUC5oJMqyvYe_3h7Fmow-1 Received: by mail-lf1-f72.google.com with SMTP id x19so692769lfg.0 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 03:43:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=PsY1afjqXUvOhhLtl0Ou26hpywvwcP5IhlNh1OY1bj4=; b=O0bDouffcvw5YCVXq7b6lvfqob90zT1Erq+nPt7e1NhbufqYf5eUwLWctg0r4DRfUG qHHB7PgTwt9KQ3AQHax4eA9KMOZW2UCRLRAHLMZzrUGD6x79OARU+5BJORSoaKO+tw6a LD21Kev6ldp5KAod0xC4uvkU2w31uBd9ovwnDkCQzdGYVhnB4BjTWXjCJ2QPEPu/qfO9 lCWSFWpae0MngPz2ZcEuyFr5EUMGdF3okR8tUCKenCfc1lBBWD34OdBPF6tf28zVyKe4 fB7OBAnh1el6y3AvgBU5vCSBEMh2oBTsiqXkJj752jzMqXRhdzKJ4mlrjBbBrB4nsiA1 jaOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuY6zAEdI+RkJCJpJoIuE2mOpmAPGUz1SHelIpY6mQNNO+jKwYrs 4Lpt6jDP2e+wnMfRFn7TaRvbIpaFyDkNUS//ycdTNgUqcR47LxXIprefcLKKjzFOQlG68KOmWOB QzxUAPu/MmiBA X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b302:: with SMTP id o2mr1644046lja.289.1585132979223; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 03:42:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJqC2CZ7MeUywLdP0GgN0NM9BSM6xSTLHdv9Tk+vvwIztLKJ8LVZLuGoJCCqFYxOSqlnHxvsQ== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b302:: with SMTP id o2mr1644027lja.289.1585132978951; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 03:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alrua-x1.borgediget.toke.dk ([2a0c:4d80:42:443::2]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q4sm13333841lfp.18.2020.03.25.03.42.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 25 Mar 2020 03:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by alrua-x1.borgediget.toke.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A253C18158B; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 11:42:57 +0100 (CET) From: Toke =?utf-8?Q?H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= To: Alexei Starovoitov , John Fastabend Cc: Andrii Nakryiko , Jakub Kicinski , Alexei Starovoitov , Daniel Borkmann , Martin KaFai Lau , Song Liu , Yonghong Song , Andrii Nakryiko , "David S. Miller" , Jesper Dangaard Brouer , Lorenz Bauer , Andrey Ignatov , Networking , bpf Subject: Re: [PATCH bpf-next 1/4] xdp: Support specifying expected existing program when attaching XDP In-Reply-To: <20200325013631.vuncsvkivexdb3fr@ast-mbp> References: <875zez76ph.fsf@toke.dk> <20200320103530.2853c573@kicinski-fedora-PC1C0HJN> <5e750bd4ebf8d_233f2ab4c81425c4ce@john-XPS-13-9370.notmuch> <87tv2f48lp.fsf@toke.dk> <87h7ye3mf3.fsf@toke.dk> <87tv2e10ly.fsf@toke.dk> <5e7a5e07d85e8_74a82ad21f7a65b88d@john-XPS-13-9370.notmuch> <20200325013631.vuncsvkivexdb3fr@ast-mbp> X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 11:42:57 +0100 Message-ID: <87wo78pvf2.fsf@toke.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: bpf-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: bpf@vger.kernel.org Alexei Starovoitov writes: > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 12:22:47PM -0700, John Fastabend wrote: >> > >> > Well, I wasn't talking about any of those subsystems, I was talking >> > about networking :) >> >> My experience has been that networking in the strict sense of XDP no >> longer exists on its own without cgroups, flow dissector, sockops, >> sockmap, tracing, etc. All of these pieces are built, patched, loaded, >> pinned and otherwise managed and manipulated as BPF objects via libbpf. >> >> Because I have all this infra in place for other items its a bit odd >> imo to drop out of BPF apis to then swap a program differently in the >> XDP case from how I would swap a program in any other place. I'm >> assuming ability to swap links will be enabled at some point. >> >> Granted it just means I have some extra functions on the side to manage >> the swap similar to how 'qdisc' would be handled today but still not as >> nice an experience in my case as if it was handled natively. >> >> Anyways the netlink API is going to have to call into the BPF infra >> on the kernel side for verification, etc so its already not pure >> networking. >> >> > >> > In particular, networking already has a consistent and fairly >> > well-designed configuration mechanism (i.e., netlink) that we are >> > generally trying to move more functionality *towards* not *away from* >> > (see, e.g., converting ethtool to use netlink). >> >> True. But BPF programs are going to exist and interop with other >> programs not exactly in the networking space. Actually library calls >> might be used in tracing, cgroups, and XDP side. It gets a bit more >> interesting if the "same" object file (with some patching) runs in both >> XDP and sockops land for example. > > Thanks John for summarizing it very well. > It looks to me that netlink proponents fail to realize that "bpf for > networking" goes way beyond what netlink is doing and capable of doing in the > future. BPF_*_INET_* progs do core networking without any smell of netlink > anywhere. "But, but, but, netlink is the way to configure networking"... is > simply not true. That was not what I was saying. Obviously there are other components to the networking stack than netlink. What I'm saying is that netlink is the interface the kernel uses to *configure network devices*. And that attaching an XDP program is a network device configuration operation. I mean, it: - Relies on the RTNL lock for synchronisation - Fundamentally alters the flow of network packets on the device - Potentially has side effects like link up/down, HWQ reconfig etc I'm wondering if there's a way to reconcile these views? Maybe making the bpf_link attachment work by passing the link fd to the netlink API? That would keep the network interface configuration over netlink, but would still allow a BPF application to swap out "its" programs via the bpf_link APIs? -Toke