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From: Jordan Glover <Golden_Miller83@protonmail.ch>
To: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
Cc: Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>,
	Daniel Colascione <dancol@google.com>,
	Song Liu <songliubraving@fb.com>,
	Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
	Networking <netdev@vger.kernel.org>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	Kernel Team <Kernel-team@fb.com>,
	Lorenz Bauer <lmb@cloudflare.com>, Jann Horn <jannh@google.com>,
	Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
	Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
	LSM List <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 bpf-next 1/4] bpf: unprivileged BPF access via /dev/bpf
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 09:34:45 +0000
Message-ID: <fkD3fs46a1YnR4lh0tEG-g3tDnDcyZuzji7bAUR9wujPLLl75ZhI8Yk-H1jZpSugO7qChVeCwxAMmxLdeoF2QFS3ZzuYlh7zmeZOmhDJxww=@protonmail.ch> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20190815230808.2o2qe7a72cwdce2m@ast-mbp.dhcp.thefacebook.com>

On Thursday, August 15, 2019 11:08 PM, Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 11:36:43AM -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 10:29 AM Alexei Starovoitov
> > alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 11:24:54AM +0000, Jordan Glover wrote:
> > >
> > > > systemd --user processes aren't "less privileged". The are COMPLETELY unprivileged.
> > > > Granting them cap_bpf is the same as granting it to every other unprivileged user
> > > > process. Also unprivileged user process can start systemd --user process with any
> > > > command they like.
> > >
> > > systemd itself is trusted. It's the same binary whether it runs as pid=1
> > > or as pid=123. One of the use cases is to make IPAddressDeny= work with --user.
> > > Subset of that feature already works with AmbientCapabilities=CAP_NET_ADMIN.
> > > CAP_BPF is a natural step in the same direction.
> >
> > I have the feeling that we're somehow speaking different languages.
> > What, precisely, do you mean when you say "systemd itself is trusted"?
> > Do you mean "the administrator trusts that the /lib/systemd/systemd
> > binary is not malicious"? Do you mean "the administrator trusts that
> > the running systemd process is not malicious"?
>
> please see
> https://github.com/systemd/systemd/commit/4c1567f29aeb60a6741874bca8a8e3a0bd69ed01
> I'm not advocating for or against this approach.
> Call it 'security hole' or 'better security'.
> There are two categories of people for any feature like this.
> My point that there is a demand to use bpf for non-root and CAP_NET_ADMIN
> level of privileges is acceptable.
> Another option is to relax all of bpf to CAP_NET_ADMIN instead of CAP_SYS_ADMIN.
> But CAP_BPF is clearly better way.
>

Do you realize it's not possible to grant CAP_NET_ADMIN or any other CAP in
"systemd --user" service? Trying to do so will fail with:
"Failed to apply ambient capabilities (before UID change): Operation not permitted"

I think it's crucial to clear that point to avoid confusion in this discussion
where people are talking about different things.

On the other hand running "systemd --system" service with:

User=nobody
AmbientCapabilities=CAP_NET_ADMIN

is perfectly legit and clears some security concerns as only privileged user
can start such service.

Jordan

  reply index

Thread overview: 83+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-06-27 20:19 [PATCH v2 bpf-next 0/4] sys_bpf() access control " Song Liu
2019-06-27 20:19 ` [PATCH v2 bpf-next 1/4] bpf: unprivileged BPF access " Song Liu
2019-06-27 23:40   ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-27 23:42     ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-28 10:28       ` Christian Brauner
2019-06-28  9:05     ` Lorenz Bauer
2019-06-28 19:04     ` Song Liu
2019-06-30  0:12       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-01  9:03         ` Song Liu
2019-07-02  1:59           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-02 18:24             ` Kees Cook
2019-07-02 21:32               ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-02 23:48                 ` Song Liu
2019-07-22 20:53                 ` Song Liu
2019-07-23 10:45                   ` Lorenz Bauer
2019-07-23 15:11                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-23 22:56                     ` Song Liu
2019-07-24  1:40                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-24  6:30                         ` Song Liu
2019-07-27 18:20                           ` Song Liu
2019-07-30  5:07                             ` Song Liu
2019-07-30 20:24                               ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-31  8:10                                 ` Song Liu
2019-07-31 19:09                                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-02  7:21                                     ` Song Liu
2019-08-04 22:16                                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05  0:08                                         ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05  5:47                                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05  7:36                                             ` Song Liu
2019-08-05 17:23                                               ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05 19:21                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-05 21:25                                                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05 22:21                                                     ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-06  1:11                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-07  5:24                                                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-07  9:03                                                         ` Lorenz Bauer
2019-08-07 13:52                                                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-13 21:58                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-13 22:26                                                           ` Daniel Colascione
2019-08-13 23:24                                                             ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-13 23:06                                                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-14  0:57                                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-14 17:51                                                               ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-14 22:05                                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-14 22:30                                                                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-14 23:33                                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-14 23:59                                                                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-15  0:36                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-15 11:24                                                                   ` Jordan Glover
2019-08-15 17:28                                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-15 18:36                                                                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-15 23:08                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-16  9:34                                                                           ` Jordan Glover [this message]
2019-08-16  9:59                                                                             ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-16 11:33                                                                               ` Jordan Glover
2019-08-16 19:52                                                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-16 20:28                                                                                   ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-17 15:02                                                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-17 15:44                                                                                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-19  9:15                                                                                       ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-19 17:27                                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-19 17:38                                                                                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-15 18:43                                                                       ` Jordan Glover
2019-08-15 19:46                                                           ` Kees Cook
2019-08-15 23:46                                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-16  0:54                                                               ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-16  5:56                                                                 ` Song Liu
2019-08-16 21:45                                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-16 22:22                                                                   ` Christian Brauner
2019-08-17 15:08                                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-17 15:16                                                                       ` Christian Brauner
2019-08-17 15:36                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-17 15:42                                                                           ` Christian Brauner
2019-07-30 20:20                             ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-31  7:44                               ` Song Liu
2019-06-28  9:01   ` Lorenz Bauer
2019-06-28 19:10     ` Song Liu
2019-07-01  9:34       ` Lorenz Bauer
2019-07-02 19:22   ` Andrii Nakryiko
2019-07-03  7:28     ` Greg KH
2019-06-27 20:19 ` [PATCH v2 bpf-next 2/4] bpf: sync tools/include/uapi/linux/bpf.h Song Liu
2019-06-27 20:19 ` [PATCH v2 bpf-next 3/4] libbpf: add libbpf_[enable|disable]_sys_bpf() Song Liu
2019-06-27 20:19 ` [PATCH v2 bpf-next 4/4] bpftool: use libbpf_[enable|disable]_sys_bpf() Song Liu

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