From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.6 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_INVALID, DKIM_SIGNED,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33FD0C47083 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2021 08:57:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from gabe.freedesktop.org (gabe.freedesktop.org [131.252.210.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB434613D5 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2021 08:57:36 +0000 (UTC) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org BB434613D5 Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=fooishbar.org Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=dri-devel-bounces@lists.freedesktop.org Received: from gabe.freedesktop.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gabe.freedesktop.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18C36EBD0; Wed, 2 Jun 2021 08:57:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wm1-x32d.google.com (mail-wm1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32d]) by gabe.freedesktop.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EED026EBED for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2021 08:57:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wm1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id t4-20020a1c77040000b029019d22d84ebdso3251082wmi.3 for ; Wed, 02 Jun 2021 01:57:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fooishbar-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=brL3Kj/KAhdw9wVkWElMJ2rpOminFezvYvb4e68I3Js=; b=YOiDzlaBMHYzYUgpD0IJx/Brn7VUqdB/J8V0sJ0P1WuyfDp/vEGdOfyFTuj3gFNWY2 iYs1WwMv6L5OjvWwL18waXErpPIqEKudm5lhn43a4PMTB0eKy04d89VCbpHy4jaIxAxX Rxczfm0dmQGKslfyNLYrbaGkB6EptI+QjR8Q+PYq7phNwG0EPvbpuCNVPfmeNwdDXgLc GQ0p9Fe5NM9e5V9Yk01zeOag0ewJr55y/Ua0+UUWog3A7PjbS7EQy9JiwQoFV6PDxCgN WZq5JbRGGypN5Z57wbfvDkXOLXLTQucGo99l/kyahfWpGHCPQ7tCvv7ypmoy/lyzgSZ8 e8VQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=brL3Kj/KAhdw9wVkWElMJ2rpOminFezvYvb4e68I3Js=; b=FCjyeIGamRP4hR9CBNsikxitE8BJ4Juz0jHkM1vDriuyeNJ3MW7XNBwdXwFJnyKNRe Y7oHojk0g/JNnEdmt9iJ+Rw9GJ9KYlmpYH9BS37h0FBDdkipJK9zU2CYbze57+56v5Ex cba45BSCqdK8pn7nc1iJ9BlbJDniVXWL7hXGyAtz2LvTnq5OonYLybdFPz4sRaGEBJk1 jtzrp9CVNztmVtR3kPFxYw2x590Zi58W3GV366aDsNnCmWp6VoEaYDvtNSKip0MGujhP kZZyTAoBR585l/2IIJJ4EHULTZ0PsizJYa3tZhhe5DP6rFUQebTfwV4D2Mldl4zKHr77 NVSA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531wTH+q/S8Tlm4GLIunJGJKwcRdocLlQHdsP/W02bQ9rV5qvfqg uzf33A2cef+DBjq+bfZHASe4sbEQIfppvaMFYLinSA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJynluux7Xl+9azDQKlQ78oxfF0/t1vC7CBZ6vCduB8o3ZQ8UPHn5jNVkGdQCW6vs+q6TByLV7p503BEfiAjXNI= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:cd04:: with SMTP id f4mr31715058wmj.84.1622624252692; Wed, 02 Jun 2021 01:57:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <327e4008-b29f-f5b7-bb30-532fa52c797f@gmail.com> <7f19e3c7-b6b2-5200-95eb-3fed8d22a6b3@daenzer.net> In-Reply-To: From: Daniel Stone Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 09:57:20 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Mesa-dev] Linux Graphics Next: Userspace submission update To: =?UTF-8?Q?Christian_K=C3=B6nig?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Direct Rendering Infrastructure - Development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyZWsgT2zFocOhaw==?= , =?UTF-8?Q?Michel_D=C3=A4nzer?= , dri-devel , Jason Ekstrand , ML Mesa-dev Errors-To: dri-devel-bounces@lists.freedesktop.org Sender: "dri-devel" Hi Christian, On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 at 13:51, Christian K=C3=B6nig wrote: > Am 01.06.21 um 14:30 schrieb Daniel Vetter: > > If you want to enable this use-case with driver magic and without the > > compositor being aware of what's going on, the solution is EGLStreams. > > Not sure we want to go there, but it's definitely a lot more feasible > > than trying to stuff eglstreams semantics into dma-buf implicit > > fencing support in a desperate attempt to not change compositors. > > Well not changing compositors is certainly not something I would try > with this use case. > > Not changing compositors is more like ok we have Ubuntu 20.04 and need > to support that we the newest hardware generation. Serious question, have you talked to Canonical? I mean there's a hell of a lot of effort being expended here, but it seems to all be predicated on the assumption that Ubuntu's LTS HWE/backport policy is totally immutable, and that we might need to make the kernel do backflips to work around that. But ... is it? Has anyone actually asked them how they feel about this? I mean, my answer to the first email is 'no, absolutely not' from the technical perspective (the initial proposal totally breaks current and future userspace), from a design perspective (it breaks a lot of usecases which aren't single-vendor GPU+display+codec, or aren't just a simple desktop), and from a sustainability perspective (cutting Android adrift again isn't acceptable collateral damage to make it easier to backport things to last year's Ubuntu release). But then again, I don't even know what I'm NAKing here ... ? The original email just lists a proposal to break a ton of things, with proposed replacements which aren't technically viable, and it's not clear why? Can we please have some more details and some reasoning behind them? I don't mind that userspace (compositor, protocols, clients like Mesa as well as codec APIs) need to do a lot of work to support the new model. I do really care though that the hard-binary-switch model works fine enough for AMD but totally breaks heterogeneous systems and makes it impossible for userspace to do the right thing. Cheers, Daniel