From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-ASN: AS31976 209.132.180.0/23 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.9 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0F21F404 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 19:24:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1727270AbeH3X2g (ORCPT ); Thu, 30 Aug 2018 19:28:36 -0400 Received: from cloud.peff.net ([104.130.231.41]:34466 "HELO cloud.peff.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with SMTP id S1727086AbeH3X2g (ORCPT ); Thu, 30 Aug 2018 19:28:36 -0400 Received: (qmail 7345 invoked by uid 109); 30 Aug 2018 19:24:55 -0000 Received: from Unknown (HELO peff.net) (10.0.1.2) by cloud.peff.net (qpsmtpd/0.94) with SMTP; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 19:24:55 +0000 Authentication-Results: cloud.peff.net; auth=none Received: (qmail 30638 invoked by uid 111); 30 Aug 2018 19:25:04 -0000 Received: from sigill.intra.peff.net (HELO sigill.intra.peff.net) (10.0.0.7) by peff.net (qpsmtpd/0.94) with (ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 encrypted) SMTP; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 15:25:04 -0400 Authentication-Results: peff.net; auth=none Received: by sigill.intra.peff.net (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 30 Aug 2018 15:24:53 -0400 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 15:24:53 -0400 From: Jeff King To: Johannes Schindelin Cc: =?utf-8?B?w4Z2YXIgQXJuZmrDtnLDsA==?= Bjarmason , git@vger.kernel.org, Christian Couder Subject: Re: Git in Outreachy Dec-Mar? Message-ID: <20180830192453.GC19685@sigill.intra.peff.net> References: <20180828151419.GA17467@sigill.intra.peff.net> <8736uxe2pm.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com> <20180830031607.GB665@sigill.intra.peff.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 01:46:00PM +0200, Johannes Schindelin wrote: > On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Jeff King wrote: > > > - it naturally limits the candidate pool to under-represented groups > > (which is the whole point of the program, but if you don't > > actually care about that, then it's just a complication) > > > > So IMHO it's easily worth the trouble. > > I am willing to mentor, and the only reason that kept me from already > stepping forward and trying to brush up the landing page is this concern: > traditionally, we (as in: the core Git contributors) have been less than > successful in attracting and retaining contributors from under-represented > groups. I don't think any regular reader of this mailing list can deny > that. > > And while I find it very important to reach out (there are just *so* many > benefits to having a more diverse team), I have to ask *why* we are so > unsuccessful. As long as we do not even know the answer to that, is it > even worth pursuing Outreachy? > > I mean, if we make serious mistakes here, without even realizing, that > directly lead to being stuck in our old bubble, then we are prone to > simply repeat those mistakes over and over and over again. And that would > just be a waste of our time, *and* a big de-motivator for the Outreachy > students. > > What's your take on this? My feeling is that our lack of diversity has less to do with driving out diverse candidates, and more that they do not join in the first place. Which isn't to say we _wouldn't_ drive out diversity, but that I'm not sure we have very good data on what happens in that second stage. If we can use the program to overcome "step 1", that helps us get that data (and hopefully react to it in time to be useful, and not just use the candidate as a guinea pig; I agree there is the possibility of doing more harm than good to a student who becomes de-motivated). That leaves aside the question of whether things we are doing prevent people from participating in the first place. I'm certainly open to that idea, but I think it's a separate discussion. -Peff