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From: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>
To: Jeff King <peff@peff.net>
Cc: Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com>,
	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@xmission.com>,
	Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget <gitgitgadget@gmail.com>,
	Git <git@vger.kernel.org>,
	Johannes Schindelin <johannes.schindelin@gmx.de>,
	Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:39:02 -0800
Message-ID: <20201118023902.GD360414@google.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20201118020618.GE650959@coredump.intra.peff.net>

Hi,

Jeff King wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 07:45:21PM -0600, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> Jeff King wrote:

>>> Yes, I have run into that, and it's definitely annoying. The
>>> refs/remotes/<remote>/HEAD symref is created by clone, but is not
>>> updated by "fetch". That's intentional, because it's supposed to
>>> represent a local choice (that is merely seeded by the remote side). But
>>> it seems like adding it if it's missing might be reasonable.
>>
>> The equivalent of this choice is in "git remote add -m":
>>
>>   With `-m <master>` option, a symbolic-ref `refs/remotes/<name>/HEAD`
>>   is set up to point at remote's `<master>` branch. See also the
>>   set-head command.
>
> Wow, I'm not sure how that option escaped my notice for all these years.
> Of course it would be much more useful if it pulled the value from the
> remote HEAD (but again, unless we use "-f" we are not contacting the
> remote at all).

When would I want this implicit "set-head -a" and *not* want "-f"?

[...]
>> Presumably if we want to avoid the term "master", then this option
>> needs to be renamed.
>
> Agreed that the naming is bad.

That said, single-letter options often have bad names.  (That's part of
why these days I try to push back against single-letter options unless
a flag is frequently used.)

For consistency with "git clone -b", I suppose one might expect it to
be "git remote add -b".  Or even better, to retire the option and have
people run "git remote set-head" separately.

[...]
> E.g., remote.origin.updateHEAD that can be set to one of:
>
>   - never; do not touch it
>
>   - create-if-missing; as discussed here
>
>   - always; update it on every fetch
>
> And then it is just a question of what the default is. Currently it is
> "never". I suspect most people would be happy with "always", but it does
> break some existing flows. But perhaps "create-if-missing" is a good
> medium.

Thanks for bringing this up --- this is something I had been
interested in as well but hadn't gotten around to contacting the list
about it.

The default value for a config setting like this has two purposes:

- it makes the config setting for affected people who have not
  discovered it

- it provides a sensible, predictable standard behavior

Those two goals are often in tension, as they were for example when
setting the default for push.default.

If I consider them separately:

- to make as smooth a transition as possible for people who were
  relying on "git remote set-head", a good behavior would be to
  *fail the fetch* when the remote HEAD changes.  That would force
  the user to make a choice between "never" and "always".

- one way to relax that without hurting that goal too much would be to
  fail the fetch when the remote HEAD changes from something other
  than "master" or "main".  That way, the common case (moving from a
  default to a project-appropriate setting) would work without
  friction, and in other cases the user could make a choice between
  "never" and "always".

- all that said, the default that I prefer is simply "always".  Like
  Felipe hinted, this is a simple, intuitive behavior that most people
  would expect.

As a transition plan, I can imagine going from one of those first two
to the third after some appropriate period of time has passed.

What do you think?

Thanks,
Jonathan

  reply index

Thread overview: 163+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-12 22:43 Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 01/28] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 02/28] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 03/28] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 04/28] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 05/28] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 06/28] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 07/28] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 08/28] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 09/28] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 10/28] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 11/28] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 12/28] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 13/28] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 14/28] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-13 10:02   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:18     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-16 20:07     ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 15/28] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 16/28] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 17/28] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 18/28] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 19/28] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 20/28] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 21/28] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 22/28] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 23/28] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 24/28] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 25/28] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 26/28] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 27/28] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-12 22:43 ` [PATCH 28/28] Change the default branch name to `main` Don Goodman-Wilson via GitGitGadget
2020-11-13  9:57   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:09     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-16 20:04       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-13  0:11 ` [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 12:55 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 14:22   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 16:13     ` [RFC/PATCH] tests: support testing with an arbitrary default branch (sort of) Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-13 19:14       ` Jeff King
2020-11-13 22:00         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 22:39           ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-13 23:49           ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
     [not found]             ` <nycvar.QRO.7.76.6.2011162118060.18437@tvgsbejvaqbjf.bet>
2020-11-18 13:32               ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-18 14:16                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-20 11:36                   ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-20 16:00                     ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18 15:56                 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19  9:32                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 19:35                     ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-22 19:07                       ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 10:46                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-14  0:25           ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-13 17:42   ` [PATCH 00/28] Use main as default branch name Felipe Contreras
2020-11-14  6:13 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-16 19:52   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 16:10     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-17 19:09       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 20:58         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-17 16:12 ` [PATCH v2 00/27] tests: use " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 01/27] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 02/27] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 03/27] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 04/27] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 05/27] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 06/27] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 07/27] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 08/27] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 09/27] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 10/27] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 11/27] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 12/27] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 13/27] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 14/27] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 15/27] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 16/27] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 17/27] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 18/27] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 19/27] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 20/27] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 21/27] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 22/27] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 23/27] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 24/27] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 25/27] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 26/27] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-17 16:12   ` [PATCH v2 27/27] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 11:48   ` [PATCH v2 28/27] tests: run tests omitted by PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2020-11-18 23:56     ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19 19:30       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-20 13:09         ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-20 18:08           ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 23:44   ` [PATCH v3 00/28] tests: use main as default branch name Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 01/28] tests: mark tests relying on the current default for `init.defaultBranch` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 02/28] t0060: preemptively adjust alignment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 03/28] t[01]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 04/28] t2*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 05/28] t3[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 06/28] t3416: preemptively adjust alignment in a comment Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 07/28] t34*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 08/28] t3[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 09/28] t4*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 10/28] t5323: prepare centered comment for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 11/28] t5[0-4]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 12/28] t5503: prepare aligned comment for replacing `master` with `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 13/28] t550*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 14/28] t551*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 15/28] t55[23]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 16/28] t55[4-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 17/28] t5[6-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 18/28] t6[0-3]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 19/28] t64*: preemptively adjust alignment to prepare for `master` -> `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 20/28] t6[4-9]*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 21/28] t7[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 22/28] t7[5-9]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 23/28] t8*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 24/28] t9[0-4]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 25/28] t9[5-7]*: " Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 26/28] tests(git-p4): transition to the default branch name `main` Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 27/28] t99*: adjust the references to the default branch name "main" Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-18 23:44     ` [PATCH v3 28/28] tests: drop prereq `PREPARE_FOR_MAIN_BRANCH` where no longer needed Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2020-11-19 23:35     ` [PATCH v3 00/28] tests: use main as default branch name Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 20:48 ` [PATCH 00/28] Use " Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-17 22:47   ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-17 23:33     ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  0:07       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  1:25         ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  2:40           ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18  5:43             ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18 11:32               ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-18 15:43                 ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19  9:22                   ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-18  0:18       ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  1:22         ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  1:45           ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  2:06             ` Jeff King
2020-11-18  2:39               ` Jonathan Nieder [this message]
2020-11-18 10:12                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  9:04               ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-17 22:55   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-17 23:16     ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18  0:10       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  0:51         ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-18 23:45     ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:00       ` Johannes Schindelin
2020-11-19  0:30         ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:30         ` Peter Hadlaw
2020-11-19  0:44           ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19  0:55             ` Peter Hadlaw
2020-11-19  1:51       ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-19 10:35         ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19 11:10           ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-19 11:50             ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-19 12:33               ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-21 23:01             ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-22 10:21               ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-22 11:20                 ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-22 13:23                   ` Sergey Organov
2020-11-22 20:18                     ` Philip Oakley
2020-11-22 21:56                 ` Felipe Contreras
2020-11-22 23:54                   ` Junio C Hamano
2020-11-18  2:56   ` Jonathan Nieder
2020-11-18  5:57     ` Junio C Hamano

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