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From: "Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason" <avarab@gmail.com>
To: Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>
Cc: Derrick Stolee <stolee@gmail.com>,
	git@vger.kernel.org, Taylor Blau <me@ttaylorr.com>,
	Patrick Steinhardt <ps@pks.im>
Subject: Re: Nesting topics within other threads
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 14:14:52 +0200
Message-ID: <8735v9z32l.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <xmqqsg397jyj.fsf@gitster.g>


On Thu, Apr 29 2021, Junio C Hamano wrote:

> Derrick Stolee <stolee@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 4/28/2021 12:26 PM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
>>> Simplify the setup code in repo-settings.c in various ways, making the
>>> code shorter, easier to read, and requiring fewer hacks to do the same
>>> thing as it did before:
>>
>> This patch is interesting, and I'll review it when I have some more
>> time. Probably tomorrow.
>>
>> But I thought that I would point out that this pattern of adding a
>> patch within the thread of a larger series makes it very difficult
>> to separate the two. I use an email client that groups messages by
>> thread in order to help parse meaningful discussion from the list
>> which otherwise looks like a fire hose of noise. Now, this patch is
>> linked to the FS Monitor thread and feedback to either will trigger
>> the thread as having unread messages.
>>
>> I find it very difficult to track multiple patch series that are
>> being juggled in the same thread. It is mentally taxing enough that
>> I have avoided reviewing code presented this way to save myself the
>> effort of tracking which patches go with what topic in what order.
>
> I do find it distracting to have a full "ah, I just thought of
> something while discussing this unrelated series" patch fairly
> irritating for the same reason.  It however is unavoidable human
> nature that we come up with ideas while thinking about something not
> necessarily related.  So it largely is a presentation issue.
>
> I really appreciate the way some people (Peff is a stellar example,
> but there are others who are as good at this) handle these tangents,
> where the message sent to an existing thread is limited to only give
> an outline of the idea (possibly with "something like this?" patch
> for illustration) and then they quickly get out of the way of the
> discussion by starting a separate thread, while back-referencing "So
> here is a proper patch based on the idea I interjected in the
> discussion of that other topic."  And the discussion on the tangent
> will be done on its own thread.

In RFC 822 terms. Are you talking about the In-Reply-To[1] or
References[2] headers, or both/neither?

I'm happy to go along with whatever the convention is, but as noted
think it's valuable to come to some explicit decision to document the
convention.

Threading isn't a concept that exists in E-Mail protocols per-se. Just
In-Reply-To and References. The References header can reference N
messages most would think about as a separate "thread", and "thread" is
ultimately some fuzzy MUA-specific concept on top of these (and others).

E.g. in my client right now I'm looking at just 4 messages in this
"thread", it doesn't descend down the whole In-Reply-To, others would
act differently.

Some (such as GMail) have their own ad-hoc concept of "thread" separate
from anything in RFCs (which includes some fuzzy group-by-subject). In
GMail's web UI everything as of my "upthread"
<patch-1.1-e1d8c842c70-20210428T161817Z-avarab@gmail.com> is presented
as its own thread.

The ML read as it happens, but it's also a collectively maintained
datastructure.

It seems to me to be better to veer on the side of using standard fields
for their intended purpose for archiving / future use. I.e. making "a
reference" universally machine-readable, as opposed to a lore.kernel.org
link, or a free-form "in a recent thread" blurb.

ML Archive Formats Matter[3] :)

But yes, maybe MUAs in the wild these days mostly render things one way
or another, so catering to them would be a good trade-off. I'm writing
this from within an Emacs MUA, so I don't have much of a feel for common
MUA conventions these days.

I'm prodding to see if we can define the problem exactly, because
e.g. maybe "References: <break@threading.hack> [actual <references>]" is
something that would achieve both aims, i.e. make the references
machine-readable, but break up threading in common in-the-wild
clients. We could then patch format-patch etc. to support such
"detached" threading.

1. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc822#section-4.6.2
2. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc822#section-4.6.3
3. https://keithp.com/blogs/Repository_Formats_Matter/

  reply index

Thread overview: 122+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-04-01 15:40 [PATCH 00/23] [RFC] Builtin FSMonitor Feature Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 01/23] fsmonitor--daemon: man page and documentation Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-26 14:13   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-28 13:54     ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 02/23] fsmonitor-ipc: create client routines for git-fsmonitor--daemon Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-26 14:31   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-26 20:20     ` Eric Sunshine
2021-04-26 21:02       ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-28 19:26     ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 03/23] config: FSMonitor is repository-specific Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 04/23] fsmonitor: introduce `core.useBuiltinFSMonitor` to call the daemon via IPC Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2021-04-26 14:56   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-27  9:20     ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-04-27 12:42       ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-28  7:59         ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-04-28 16:26           ` [PATCH] repo-settings.c: simplify the setup Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-04-28 19:09             ` Nesting topics within other threads (was: [PATCH] repo-settings.c: simplify the setup) Derrick Stolee
2021-04-28 23:01               ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2021-05-05 16:12                 ` Johannes Schindelin
2021-04-29  5:12               ` Nesting topics within other threads Junio C Hamano
2021-04-29 12:14                 ` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason [this message]
2021-04-29 20:14                   ` Jeff King
2021-04-30  0:07                   ` Junio C Hamano
2021-04-30 14:23     ` [PATCH 04/23] fsmonitor: introduce `core.useBuiltinFSMonitor` to call the daemon via IPC Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 05/23] fsmonitor--daemon: add a built-in fsmonitor daemon Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-26 15:08   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-26 15:45     ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-30 14:31       ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 06/23] fsmonitor--daemon: implement client command options Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-26 15:12   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-30 14:33     ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 07/23] fsmonitor-fs-listen-win32: stub in backend for Windows Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-26 15:23   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 08/23] fsmonitor-fs-listen-macos: stub in backend for MacOS Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 09/23] fsmonitor--daemon: implement daemon command options Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-26 15:47   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-26 16:12     ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-30 15:18       ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-30 15:59     ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 10/23] fsmonitor--daemon: add pathname classification Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-26 19:17   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-26 20:11     ` Eric Sunshine
2021-04-26 20:24       ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 11/23] fsmonitor--daemon: define token-ids Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-26 19:49   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-26 20:01     ` Eric Sunshine
2021-04-26 20:03       ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-30 16:17     ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 12/23] fsmonitor--daemon: create token-based changed path cache Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-26 20:22   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-30 17:36     ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 13/23] fsmonitor-fs-listen-win32: implement FSMonitor backend on Windows Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-27 17:22   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-27 17:41     ` Eric Sunshine
2021-04-30 19:32     ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 14/23] fsmonitor-fs-listen-macos: add macos header files for FSEvent Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-27 18:13   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 15/23] fsmonitor-fs-listen-macos: implement FSEvent listener on MacOS Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-27 18:35   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-30 20:05     ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 16/23] fsmonitor--daemon: implement handle_client callback Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-26 21:01   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-05-03 15:04     ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-05-13 18:52   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-01 15:40 ` [PATCH 17/23] fsmonitor--daemon: periodically truncate list of modified files Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-27 13:24   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-01 15:41 ` [PATCH 18/23] fsmonitor--daemon:: introduce client delay for testing Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-27 13:36   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-01 15:41 ` [PATCH 19/23] fsmonitor--daemon: use a cookie file to sync with file system Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-27 14:23   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-05-03 21:59     ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-01 15:41 ` [PATCH 20/23] fsmonitor: force update index when fsmonitor token advances Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-27 14:52   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-01 15:41 ` [PATCH 21/23] t7527: create test for fsmonitor--daemon Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-27 15:41   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-01 15:41 ` [PATCH 22/23] p7519: add fsmonitor--daemon Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-27 15:45   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-01 15:41 ` [PATCH 23/23] t7527: test status with untracked-cache and fsmonitor--daemon Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-04-27 15:51   ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-16 22:44 ` [PATCH 00/23] [RFC] Builtin FSMonitor Feature Junio C Hamano
2021-04-20 15:27   ` Johannes Schindelin
2021-04-20 19:13     ` Jeff Hostetler
2021-04-21 13:17     ` Derrick Stolee
2021-04-27 18:49 ` FS Monitor Windows Performance (was [PATCH 00/23] [RFC] Builtin FSMonitor Feature) Derrick Stolee
2021-04-27 19:31 ` FS Monitor macOS " Derrick Stolee
2021-05-22 13:56 ` [PATCH v2 00/28] Builtin FSMonitor Feature Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 01/28] simple-ipc: preparations for supporting binary messages Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 02/28] fsmonitor--daemon: man page Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 03/28] fsmonitor--daemon: update fsmonitor documentation Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 04/28] fsmonitor-ipc: create client routines for git-fsmonitor--daemon Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-06-02 11:24     ` Johannes Schindelin
2021-06-14 21:23       ` Johannes Schindelin
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 05/28] help: include fsmonitor--daemon feature flag in version info Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 06/28] config: FSMonitor is repository-specific Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 07/28] fsmonitor: introduce `core.useBuiltinFSMonitor` to call the daemon via IPC Johannes Schindelin via GitGitGadget
2021-06-14 21:28     ` Johannes Schindelin
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 08/28] fsmonitor--daemon: add a built-in fsmonitor daemon Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 09/28] fsmonitor--daemon: implement client command options Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 10/28] t/helper/fsmonitor-client: create IPC client to talk to FSMonitor Daemon Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-06-11  6:32     ` Junio C Hamano
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 11/28] fsmonitor-fs-listen-win32: stub in backend for Windows Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 12/28] fsmonitor-fs-listen-macos: stub in backend for MacOS Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 13/28] fsmonitor--daemon: implement daemon command options Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 14/28] fsmonitor--daemon: add pathname classification Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 15/28] fsmonitor--daemon: define token-ids Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 16/28] fsmonitor--daemon: create token-based changed path cache Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 17/28] fsmonitor-fs-listen-win32: implement FSMonitor backend on Windows Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 18/28] fsmonitor-fs-listen-macos: add macos header files for FSEvent Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 19/28] fsmonitor-fs-listen-macos: implement FSEvent listener on MacOS Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:56   ` [PATCH v2 20/28] fsmonitor--daemon: implement handle_client callback Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:57   ` [PATCH v2 21/28] fsmonitor--daemon: periodically truncate list of modified files Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:57   ` [PATCH v2 22/28] fsmonitor--daemon: use a cookie file to sync with file system Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-06-14 21:42     ` Johannes Schindelin
2021-05-22 13:57   ` [PATCH v2 23/28] fsmonitor: enhance existing comments Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:57   ` [PATCH v2 24/28] fsmonitor: force update index after large responses Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:57   ` [PATCH v2 25/28] t7527: create test for fsmonitor--daemon Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:57   ` [PATCH v2 26/28] p7519: add fsmonitor--daemon Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:57   ` [PATCH v2 27/28] t7527: test status with untracked-cache and fsmonitor--daemon Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-22 13:57   ` [PATCH v2 28/28] t/perf: avoid copying builtin fsmonitor files into test repo Jeff Hostetler via GitGitGadget
2021-05-27  2:06   ` [PATCH v2 00/28] Builtin FSMonitor Feature Junio C Hamano
2021-06-02 11:28     ` Johannes Schindelin
2021-06-22 15:45     ` Jeff Hostetler

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