From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-ASN: AS31976 209.132.180.0/23 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=3.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCB11F404 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2018 13:23:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1727308AbeIERxl (ORCPT ); Wed, 5 Sep 2018 13:53:41 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f65.google.com ([74.125.82.65]:54198 "EHLO mail-wm0-f65.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1727257AbeIERxk (ORCPT ); Wed, 5 Sep 2018 13:53:40 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f65.google.com with SMTP id b19-v6so7995709wme.3 for ; Wed, 05 Sep 2018 06:23:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:user-agent:in-reply-to:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=h1+xjnaIYhWrbZWDn1G4EbJvtYAF5A8SSmHC5XDeLPU=; b=rz/qFtJnznkfE711b9g8I/OBdEP/F9KueHYqMDMT41C5F7CZUk7BnfPbM1jCNnc9qD gfyuMvkyM/FiAMn/ZfLu3IJ3E3JzCyxzTmcqGX4QGGD0YGuXlRx3EDhnyclM+C58OPrq pxKynrSafbwEi1dWKoI5458TD+v/xu8hehYswKMwh41l9Qpk/sJayepHPihZ/lIRtWg2 r8Gfd1oZNSkxRgYl8ZSVp6b7X0zb1nw0O95cLrFfACUcwQlKZRKv/F0rnWN9KRRQPy6U qzrbQagP8eKH0qeAY8puZEj5mriCjq2uD14Z2lLEDY4cJ78wTUaPtZy4izdLV9gq5Prf AVvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:user-agent :in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=h1+xjnaIYhWrbZWDn1G4EbJvtYAF5A8SSmHC5XDeLPU=; b=R4O+Xw4RWVeORuLxiRx4KQ7KGNlrLEf/4v9ZIcut3EiR9gJr3GcoGjdolSMKTSVXSX vovT+oYkYMiWObhJyU0Q4wriGTEeu3ACRoAWxdZ/V10va4zZI3smWx0OrGd42T5A9+Gd mUML1o6d7PDhIBUbFs+DpA8fceQsBYlohodwv7/0wxPLMsZwsiZLjNnHrVjSc+kGrD9a USYYpKDZmYKM3dqbXqTZJMXar5wv1mo25LVRbNo7YFdbTWcsZ9H9sVhqpxDo1GEFCTh/ ZQDHSIHHa+hwvtXCpqTgQsLf+SM3x57e2jm6kZWTYUJW7cFF57rVh6SRjVzxmW9gEYul J2lg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51Ac8HzWFv3Qq70xp1G4k4WlI7QZkJ+6f+49LKXikIqCodVoKJmQ qodqnJ7SxYATCbUomZkYXzg48IJKz6g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdYZGinyk3z2aUoqlmPxoqfSP4IAqve18oQiZzWeoQX+q0rGrWZbkAdwcffVpMAiaOfiV5oOfQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:938a:: with SMTP id v132-v6mr257396wmd.114.1536153803516; Wed, 05 Sep 2018 06:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evledraar (g74155.upc-g.chello.nl. [80.57.74.155]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e141-v6sm2571371wmd.32.2018.09.05.06.23.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Wed, 05 Sep 2018 06:23:22 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?w4Z2YXIgQXJuZmrDtnLDsA==?= Bjarmason To: Jeff King Cc: git@vger.kernel.org, Christian Couder Subject: Re: Git in Outreachy Dec-Mar? References: <20180828151419.GA17467@sigill.intra.peff.net> <8736uxe2pm.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com> <20180830031607.GB665@sigill.intra.peff.net> <87sh2wcak4.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com> <20180830194223.GD19685@sigill.intra.peff.net> User-agent: Debian GNU/Linux testing (buster); Emacs 25.2.2; mu4e 1.1.0 In-reply-to: <20180830194223.GD19685@sigill.intra.peff.net> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 15:23:21 +0200 Message-ID: <874lf4rsc6.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org On Thu, Aug 30 2018, Jeff King wrote: > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 02:18:19PM +0200, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: >> > - it naturally limits the candidate pool to under-represented groups >> > (which is the whole point of the program, but if you don't >> > actually care about that, then it's just a complication) >> >> I'm fine with doing selection discrimination of under-represented groups >> through such a program. Particularly if, as you mention, there's >> earmarked funding for it which otherwise might not be available, so it's >> not zero-sum when it comes to a hypothetical alternative of casting a >> wider net of our own (and as you mention, that would be more work). > > Yeah, just for reference, my "you" there was a hypothetical "one might > or might not care about...", not responding to your particular email. > >> I do think it's unfortunate that the selection criteria for the program >> privileges U.S. citizens and U.S. residents above other people, >> particularly since they're also accepting worldwide candidates (and >> we've had at least one non-American participant that I know about), so >> it's not e.g. for U.S. administrative or tax reasons as one might expect >> if they only accepted Americans. > > I assume you mean this bit from the eligibility rules: > > You must meet one of the following criteria: > - You live any where in the world and you identify as a woman (cis > or trans), trans man, or genderqueer person (including genderfluid > or genderfree). > - You live in the United States or you are a U.S. national or >> permanent resident living abroad, AND you are a person of any > gender who is Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native > American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or > Pacific Islander > > So there are more categories for the US, but I think that is largely > because under-representation is somewhat regional. Being black in the US > is different than being black in Africa. Certainly one could argue that > Africa as a whole is under-represented in the tech world, but I think > you'd probably need to draw different boundaries in different places if > you want to extend opportunities to those who are least likely to > already have them. > > I don't know what those groupings would look like in, say, Europe. If > you're suggesting that the program would be better off having > region-specific rules for more regions, I'd certainly agree with that. I > don't know if it's something the Outreachy folks have considered or > discussed; it might be worth bringing it up. [I don't mean to drag this up again, I had a draft here that I hadn't sent, and thought given that I'm standing for the Git Project Leadership Committee which presumably has something to say about this it was better if I clarified]. I don't mean that just doing the equivalent of s/U.S. national//g on the criteria would improve things, for the reasons you explained that clearly wouldn't be an improvement or in the spirit of the criteria. I was imagining that there was some way to phrase this that would include the current group(s) but be country-neutral. E.g. instead of talking about some specific minorities in specific countries say that if you're in a group below such-and-such a percentage. Although reading this again and consulting Wikipedia they seem to be using all U.S. census groups below 20% with the exception of one (two if you count "Other"), so I don't know how that would translate to other countries, or if that's just an unintentional omission. Perhaps some mix of group + mean income within that group? I don't know, and I'm not familiar enough with the U.S. to speculate as to how they came up with that. Or, just a third criteria of: Projects can opt-in to consider non-U.S. nationals or residents who they believe fulfill the spirit of criteria #2 as it would apply to another country. Then we could (if Outreachy approves) opt-in to that, since considering that on a case-by-case basis is surely less gnarly than trying to come up with some general rule. So again, I don't think this particular thing is a big deal, or something worth spending time worrying about at this point. Just something to keep an eye out for and potentially gently poke Outreachy about. I just think we might stand to get better/more candidates and have more fair process, and be seen to spend project funds in a less biased way if the criteria wasn't an OR'd statement whose second half starts off by outright limiting itself to less than 5% of the world population based on a specific nationality, before further narrowing things down.