From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50C7C47094 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 2021 08:18:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDBF1613E7 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 2021 08:18:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S230026AbhFJIUY (ORCPT ); Thu, 10 Jun 2021 04:20:24 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]:37249 "EHLO mout.gmx.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S229715AbhFJIUX (ORCPT ); Thu, 10 Jun 2021 04:20:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1623313093; bh=e+YE8ZfM6xG6pcC+IRD5yE/RtCyYGQ5gNT6WJA6CBeg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=VkdtHpz1wNXBnATXW+9NhIuVoAhKvJC06yvAel1QAZkchlOYXYcFWxsFjuKOQ74QD 0arefvUcbjTwD6DFrlZf2mqE5sz6CiRg9dQoH67EU0qEUuE034JE5zCvGPVI+OEfq6 taSXua91nFMeK7gI57sm+ZlvG1AGWE1fVWZn8w68= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [172.24.14.142] ([89.1.213.18]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MGz1V-1m4mQg2Irb-00E88R; Thu, 10 Jun 2021 10:18:13 +0200 Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 10:18:11 +0200 (CEST) From: Johannes Schindelin X-X-Sender: virtualbox@gitforwindows.org To: Emily Shaffer cc: Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget , git@vger.kernel.org, gitster@pobox.com, sandals@crustytoothpaste.net, stolee@gmail.com, jrnieder@gmail.com, Derrick Stolee , Derrick Stolee Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/4] Documentation: use singular they when appropriate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.1 (DEB 209 2017-03-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:XY8TbnM1/HdsvmCJb2M8Cg/vliiLbQ5L4rdueRqTN8FiNufVBTB veSV7oCtDSLmeDYiJb59EERaKqsUIe4ZMN0N04/O9xHgfKDSJyjnQNa0TEdNoucRCjPNodq n9TxQ3jScB/cv7N/kB7qc1DKG4lsLJfEdfv+jRD1sqVt0iO0E0jDodCNldgvkADFF8JcGmR lunn0zglSZbMvOHGqAteg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:jf7nPsc1vwU=:NTJ3nFu1do1g5LENytJUcc vZWSENuD6ilbqQgVLmopbDZp2P8VYePhjwROV8APyFihuzSIBz6eXrhmww4f/DnIgBLzM0JaO cDt85T4ASgNvkIC60bEvfJ5HiSlFHWOgNWYx3kdUsL2K0eUoR9iju3hfs9Me78+fL/Y9x2s6x 2VLJ8uUmnAB5BJqhBBiC04Ab5LQjlCftFP3+9icOqOrC+LEInrc52QKrz6PwLq4AxnaKNfXRf gMjtaiy8u9DM1cQcyVmjfVcq2TwuJbo1V8hzMABalPXJLTFriVbCIXOVC7LmxApVDRqRwFqIk X7zXG8LazPNQsF2o4MZTdsMq/nS02w01JW1/wMi+/fNgfdFlnDt4HW3GKfWASaeoyOvNanja3 aXEtkVr7IhBWQJWc/5F3ilqnQXnB8S1g3rvAMsKRFYqx44npBZ3tzFAAICN6WWLJ61/7x/ji0 FmcDv0xJDLeEMUbuiLXVd2RN1a6Zy69hx2q6Mx0+EtHjH2rFquYiwyLbasOCJ+P5gU1Wf3Jqo WYj7Ep5r+7ei9JGnfH++pdpQLMwE5RHYq6TRoM91DzUxv3XbqWXVmlbpO6j8H+Znz/hqdvW9R gy7pasm594vtwkjp6aj65aGgdQuiERYP2UHU6QFLan894GoVNmiV1nBBs/nIAW9a/vUAOJI9d gvQQ74ovV53SaJjOwli1TrT4BYyTKEY0XjH6loqOlRXCfnMrYB6szY1MJEPtlp5m0z7gEsr3A 9s6su6k3QPRgf2iWxL1tuOciSrIuJXXReH3t55TvvqE5ZtNUdRVQGpc7wH8uYXwjPa7LtBzYi g1+iKpGx+xCU7iefQIZssYknju/BYd1q+Ek0uYYY92W2rR5NRX26ih+cwysgJK6sbeaekxfGZ T1a9PE+FKoc5YCTeMkEgMmO+rYJ6R8OoFAIU//XyyUdd4Uu5lnlqXDlS67g6JeluKjL4snUNK PcsKD73WLi0pSPKJvuE+D/o0ik0tpxo8hFxU07/81QqrTqUkKgTq+ap+GEbg/LbPCR6Gnj3PI J6B9HZNx4zPCPmmp8VAQGnqd8ZzqWu9GWFoR0Z/MU3TiYzgbCfQKFbF8BX6hB3lFTfqiRLsn5 m7mfuyAp/0Fe43OL8LapBwrqHoe3bpjYgoJnD/0lPuQ+VteTB/lo5gpBQ== Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org Hi Emily, On Tue, 8 Jun 2021, Emily Shaffer wrote: > There is value in intentionally defaulting to "she/her", especially in > settings where women are underrepresented. It can be a nice way to shake > the foundations of unconscious bias in the reader's head. See > https://www.askamanager.org/2011/07/why-i-refer-to-everyone-as-she.html > as an example. I am glad you brought this up. It is all too easy for male readers such as myself to not even notice how effortless it is to read text that includes you, whether by the pronoun "he" or by avoiding any gendered pronoun altogether. All the more surprising that the same male readers (again, I will include myself as it still happens to me, despite all the work I embarked on to become more conscious of my own biases) will stumble over sentences where a female pronoun "excludes" them. And the first reaction, funnily enough, is rarely "Oh, _that_ is how I make half of the population feel all the time!". Instead it is more like "How dare they exclude me"? Funny side note: this is precisely what happened recently in Germany, where a law was proposed, and in contrast to common practices (which dictates to use the "generic male form", i.e. "he/him", as the German language does not have a singular "they"), it used the "generic female" instead. I bet you can imagine the indignant backlash from male politicians... Let me be the first to admit that working on this kind of bias isn't easy, and I imagine that other male readers' struggles will be similar (or even more pronounced, if they are less interested in biases and fairness than I am). Seeing how threatening these efforts to adjust our language are sometimes perceived, I often find it pretty difficult to tread carefully. For example, I recently suggested that stumbling over a "singular they" might give male readers an opportunity to develop empathy with the underrepresented, to experience a glimpse of what it means to feel excluded (even if they weren't excluded at all), and consequently to pay more attention. This suggestion did not quite have the intended effect, I must say: it seems that this invitation was misunderstood as an attack instead. In light of this experience, even if I generally agree with your point abo= ut using "she/he" by default, I believe that Stolee's direction is more diplomatic. > On Mon, Jun 07, 2021 at 04:57:45PM +0000, Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadge= t wrote: > > > Replace these uses with "they/them" to ensure that these documentation > > examples apply to all potential users without exception. > > However, in this case, I think "they/them" is appropriate as a default. > As you say, this documentation is intended as a guide to potential users > and contributors, and should apply to them. Thanks for writing the > change. For what it's worth, I agree. Thank you, Stolee! Ciao, Dscho