Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Emily Shaffer]

Seems like there's been some kerfuffle with Freenode staff and new
ownership[1][2][3]. What does this mean for Git project? I think #git
on Freenode isn't maintained by Git developers directly, right? (And
anyways, the MOTD on #git says the moderators of that channel are
monitoring the "Freenode situation" with a pointer to [2].) We do
theoretically keep up #git-devel on Freenode, though it's largely
silent. Should we be worrying? Migrating? Deciding the low traffic on
#git-devel means it's not worth moving? I'm not sure how to balance
being alarmist and being practical here, but I thought it was worth
bringing up on-list.

 - Emily

[1] https://boingboing.net/2021/05/19/freenode-irc-staff-quit-after-new-owner-seizes-control.html
[2] https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409
[3] https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Jonathan Nieder]

Hi,

Emily Shaffer wrote[0]:

> Seems like there's been some kerfuffle with Freenode staff and new
> ownership[1][2][3]. What does this mean for Git project? I think #git
> on Freenode isn't maintained by Git developers directly, right?

https://gitirc.eu/ involved a lot of work by Jan Krüger (thanks!), so
cc-ing him since he likely knows who else is active there.

[...]
>                                                             We do
> theoretically keep up #git-devel on Freenode, though it's largely
> silent. Should we be worrying? Migrating?

The main practical struggle on #git-devel has been spam.  I don't know
that any particular IRC network is better at spam prevention than
others.

It looks like most of the Freenode admins have moved to
https://libera.chat/, so that would be a close equivalent.  Another
alternative is OFTC <https://www.oftc.net/>, which is used by
irc.debian.org, for example.

There are also other real-time chat programs such as Zulip (open
source, used in Outreachy), Discord (used by LLVM), and Slack (used by
Chromium); each has its benefits and flaws.

Thanks,
Jonathan

[0] https://lore.kernel.org/git/CAJoAoZ=e62sceNpcR5L5zjsj177uczTnXjcAg+BbOoOkeH8vXQ@mail.gmail.com/
> [1] https://boingboing.net/2021/05/19/freenode-irc-staff-quit-after-new-owner-seizes-control.html
> [2] https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409
> [3] https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Junio C Hamano]

Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com> writes:

> It looks like most of the Freenode admins have moved to
> https://libera.chat/, so that would be a close equivalent.  Another
> alternative is OFTC <https://www.oftc.net/>, which is used by
> irc.debian.org, for example.
>
> There are also other real-time chat programs such as Zulip (open
> source, used in Outreachy), Discord (used by LLVM), and Slack (used by
> Chromium); each has its benefits and flaws.

I usually refrain from suggesting us to side with anybody in a
confrontation that is outside our main mission, but I do not mind
supporting the folks who were at freenode to show appreciation for
the service they gave us so far, by moving to where they are now.

If all candidates offer similar level of stability and archival,
that is.

Thanks.

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Michal Suchánek]

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 12:08:07PM -0700, Jonathan Nieder wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Emily Shaffer wrote[0]:
> 
> > Seems like there's been some kerfuffle with Freenode staff and new
> > ownership[1][2][3]. What does this mean for Git project? I think #git
> > on Freenode isn't maintained by Git developers directly, right?
> 
> https://gitirc.eu/ involved a lot of work by Jan Krüger (thanks!), so
> cc-ing him since he likely knows who else is active there.
> 
> [...]
> >                                                             We do
> > theoretically keep up #git-devel on Freenode, though it's largely
> > silent. Should we be worrying? Migrating?
> 
> The main practical struggle on #git-devel has been spam.  I don't know
> that any particular IRC network is better at spam prevention than
> others.
> 
> It looks like most of the Freenode admins have moved to
> https://libera.chat/, so that would be a close equivalent.  Another
> alternative is OFTC <https://www.oftc.net/>, which is used by
> irc.debian.org, for example.
> 
> There are also other real-time chat programs such as Zulip (open
> source, used in Outreachy), Discord (used by LLVM), and Slack (used by
> Chromium); each has its benefits and flaws.

Or Matrix used by Mozilla, GNOME, and others.

Unlike the others Matrix intends to be not just a chat application
(opensource or proprietary) but open standard which has multiple
implementetions of both the server and the client.

In that way it is the most flexible option allowing communication
between people with different UX preferences.

Thanks

Michal

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Jeff King]

On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 09:11:41AM +0200, Michal Suchánek wrote:

> > It looks like most of the Freenode admins have moved to
> > https://libera.chat/, so that would be a close equivalent.  Another
> > alternative is OFTC <https://www.oftc.net/>, which is used by
> > irc.debian.org, for example.
> > 
> > There are also other real-time chat programs such as Zulip (open
> > source, used in Outreachy), Discord (used by LLVM), and Slack (used by
> > Chromium); each has its benefits and flaws.
> 
> Or Matrix used by Mozilla, GNOME, and others.
> 
> Unlike the others Matrix intends to be not just a chat application
> (opensource or proprietary) but open standard which has multiple
> implementetions of both the server and the client.
> 
> In that way it is the most flexible option allowing communication
> between people with different UX preferences.

I don't have much of an opinion either way, as I do not usually use the
irc channel at all. And my comment is perhaps more about #git than
#git-devel.

But I would say that the decision to move to another application would
be one that can be made by individual people. I.e., the reason people
come to freenode #git to ask questions is because there are useful
people hanging out there who will answer them. And likewise to
#git-devel, because that's where the people who can have useful
discussions are.

So if there is a critical mass of useful people that will hang out on
the Matrix equivalent of #git (or whatever other tool), then that may
become a new place. And people who want to do that should let people
know where they can be found (whatever happens, I'd appreciate a PR to
https://github.com/git/git-scm.com updating the "Community" page).

Of course there's value in coordinating. Everybody _can_ hang out on
their favorite venues and eventually talk to each other, but it's much
easier if everybody agrees where to go. :) I think Emily's question is
more "where do folks who hang out on #git-devel want to hang out now".
And that's why I say my comments are probably more relevant for #git
(where devs don't need to coordinate as much; useful people can just
hang out and help folks with questions).

-Peff

PS A lot of this may reflect my view that there is no "official"
structure for a lot of Git. We all used gmane as an archive because it
was the best option at the time. Then it got worse, and Eric made
public-inbox because it was what he wanted. And we all used it because
it was so good. But there never needed to be any official adoption
decision. Likewise for irc. I don't think #git or even #git-devel has
any official status. It is simply where people doing things chose to go.
Now they may choose to go somewhere else, but they don't necessarily
have to do it as a unit.

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Emily Shaffer]

On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:19 AM Jeff King <peff@peff.net> wrote:
> So if there is a critical mass of useful people that will hang out on
> the Matrix equivalent of #git (or whatever other tool), then that may
> become a new place. And people who want to do that should let people
> know where they can be found (whatever happens, I'd appreciate a PR to
> https://github.com/git/git-scm.com updating the "Community" page).

Yep, this was my point, really. git-scm and the MyFirstContribution
doc both have pointers to #git-devel on Freenode for now, and if we
want to move away we should change those.

As for where to go instead, I tend to agree with Junio's statement:
> > > [...] I do not mind
> > > supporting the folks who were at freenode to show appreciation for
> > > the service they gave us so far, by moving to where they are now.
> > >
> > > If all candidates offer similar level of stability and archival,
> > > that is.

 - Emily

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Junio C Hamano]

Jeff King <peff@peff.net> writes:

> decision. Likewise for irc. I don't think #git or even #git-devel has
> any official status. It is simply where people doing things chose to go.
> Now they may choose to go somewhere else, but they don't necessarily
> have to do it as a unit.

FYI I contacted https://libera.chat/ to register "as a project",
primarily to prevent other folks squat on #git and #git-*; if we
decide to move our bi-weekly "Git Standup" there, it may turn out to
be useful.

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Kevin Daudt]

On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 06:20:19AM +0900, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> Jeff King <peff@peff.net> writes:
> 
> > decision. Likewise for irc. I don't think #git or even #git-devel has
> > any official status. It is simply where people doing things chose to go.
> > Now they may choose to go somewhere else, but they don't necessarily
> > have to do it as a unit.
> 
> FYI I contacted https://libera.chat/ to register "as a project",
> primarily to prevent other folks squat on #git and #git-*; if we
> decide to move our bi-weekly "Git Standup" there, it may turn out to
> be useful.
> 
> 

Thanks. #alpine-devel has already been handed over to Jonathan Nieder,
but #git is not managed by anyone (no operators in the channel).

Fixing this would indeed require registering as a project.

Kevin

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Fri, May 21 2021, Junio C Hamano wrote:

> Jeff King <peff@peff.net> writes:
>
>> decision. Likewise for irc. I don't think #git or even #git-devel has
>> any official status. It is simply where people doing things chose to go.
>> Now they may choose to go somewhere else, but they don't necessarily
>> have to do it as a unit.
>
> FYI I contacted https://libera.chat/ to register "as a project",
> primarily to prevent other folks squat on #git and #git-*; if we
> decide to move our bi-weekly "Git Standup" there, it may turn out to
> be useful.

I don't know if it was formally decided, but it seems the standup is in
fact happening on liberachat recently. Could you update the calendar
entry in your "Git" calendar[1] to s/irc.freenode.org/irc.libera.chat/g?

1. https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=jfgbl2mrlipp4pb6ieih0qr3so%40group.calendar.google.com

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Junio C Hamano]

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <avarab@gmail.com> writes:

> I don't know if it was formally decided, but it seems the standup is in
> fact happening on liberachat recently. Could you update the calendar
> entry in your "Git" calendar[1] to s/irc.freenode.org/irc.libera.chat/g?
>
> 1. https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=jfgbl2mrlipp4pb6ieih0qr3so%40group.calendar.google.com

Will do.

I'll also add you to the editors of that calendar (Thomas Gummerer
has been a helping editor, now I'll volunteer you as well ;-)

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Felipe Contreras]

Jeff King wrote:
> Of course there's value in coordinating. Everybody _can_ hang out on
> their favorite venues and eventually talk to each other, but it's much
> easier if everybody agrees where to go. :)

I don't think it works that way.

I "everybody" agrees to move to Discord, many old-timers won't. Same
with Gitter. And if most people were on IRC, many youngsters wouldn't
come.

There's a limit to how many chat applications you are willing juggle,
and adding one more just to chat with git developers is something many
people won't do.

-- 
Felipe Contreras

RE: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Randall S. Becker]

On May 21, 2021 2:38 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>Jeff King wrote:
>> Of course there's value in coordinating. Everybody _can_ hang out on
>> their favorite venues and eventually talk to each other, but it's much
>> easier if everybody agrees where to go. :)
>
>I don't think it works that way.
>
>I "everybody" agrees to move to Discord, many old-timers won't. Same with Gitter. And if most people were on IRC, many youngsters
>wouldn't come.

Having been on IRC for three separate rounds, with a smattering of AOL, CompuServe, HipChat, Slack, Hangouts, Messenger, SMS, Skype, Teams... I'd be surprised if a consensus is possible.  The limiting factor for most of my circle is whether connections are even possible from corporate intranets and IRC is generally blocked. For the more blocked ones, Slack and Teams tend to be more palatable (not in my opinion). We have IRC open by exemption (specifically for #git) and will close it if IRC is discontinued. It might be worth taking a poll of what people can use instead of preference. My $0.02 bet is that that is the limiting factor for the community as a whole (work from home COVID notwithstanding).

>There's a limit to how many chat applications you are willing juggle, and adding one more just to chat with git developers is something
>many people won't do.

I don't know about you, but when 5 or 6 chat platforms beep at me at the same time, I start looking for the exit - or Friday afternoons. As a sideways thought, maybe we should just figure out a way to go to Zoom and be done with it (I have no affiliation).

Cheers,
-Randall

-- Brief whoami:
NonStop developer since approximately 211288444200000000
UNIX developer since approximately 421664400
Still not talking about MVS.
-- In my real life, I talk too much.

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Fri, May 21 2021, Felipe Contreras wrote:

> Jeff King wrote:
>> Of course there's value in coordinating. Everybody _can_ hang out on
>> their favorite venues and eventually talk to each other, but it's much
>> easier if everybody agrees where to go. :)
>
> I don't think it works that way.
>
> I "everybody" agrees to move to Discord, many old-timers won't. Same
> with Gitter. And if most people were on IRC, many youngsters wouldn't
> come.
>
> There's a limit to how many chat applications you are willing juggle,
> and adding one more just to chat with git developers is something many
> people won't do.

In the case of IRC though there's many IRC-to-X gateways that allow you
to somewhat have your cake and eat it too, e.g. there's one for
discord[1].

I haven't tried it, but I use another channel that has an
irc-to-Telegram (the app) gateway[2]. It works quite well. Aside from
the Freenode v.s. Librechat question I wonder if there'd be interest in
having such a thing running for #git or #git-devel.

1. https://github.com/reactiflux/discord-irc
2. https://github.com/FruitieX/teleirc

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Felipe Contreras]

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
> 
> On Fri, May 21 2021, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> 
> > Jeff King wrote:
> >> Of course there's value in coordinating. Everybody _can_ hang out on
> >> their favorite venues and eventually talk to each other, but it's much
> >> easier if everybody agrees where to go. :)
> >
> > I don't think it works that way.
> >
> > I "everybody" agrees to move to Discord, many old-timers won't. Same
> > with Gitter. And if most people were on IRC, many youngsters wouldn't
> > come.
> >
> > There's a limit to how many chat applications you are willing juggle,
> > and adding one more just to chat with git developers is something many
> > people won't do.
> 
> In the case of IRC though there's many IRC-to-X gateways that allow you
> to somewhat have your cake and eat it too, e.g. there's one for
> discord[1].

I have tried some of them, they don't quite cut it for me.

> I haven't tried it, but I use another channel that has an
> irc-to-Telegram (the app) gateway[2]. It works quite well. Aside from
> the Freenode v.s. Librechat question I wonder if there'd be interest in
> having such a thing running for #git or #git-devel.

I think that would be very nice (if it works correctly).

-- 
Felipe Contreras

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Đoàn Trần Công Danh]

On 2021-05-27 01:35:21+0200, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <avarab@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, May 21 2021, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> 
> > Jeff King wrote:
> >> Of course there's value in coordinating. Everybody _can_ hang out on
> >> their favorite venues and eventually talk to each other, but it's much
> >> easier if everybody agrees where to go. :)
> >
> > I don't think it works that way.
> >
> > I "everybody" agrees to move to Discord, many old-timers won't. Same
> > with Gitter. And if most people were on IRC, many youngsters wouldn't
> > come.
> >
> > There's a limit to how many chat applications you are willing juggle,
> > and adding one more just to chat with git developers is something many
> > people won't do.
> 
> In the case of IRC though there's many IRC-to-X gateways that allow you
> to somewhat have your cake and eat it too, e.g. there's one for
> discord[1].
> 
> I haven't tried it, but I use another channel that has an
> irc-to-Telegram (the app) gateway[2]. It works quite well. Aside from
> the Freenode v.s. Librechat question I wonder if there'd be interest in
> having such a thing running for #git or #git-devel.

FWIW, Matrix also runs a bridge for IRC. There're existing bridges
for freenode and OFTC. And, a new bridge for libera is WIP.

> 
> 1. https://github.com/reactiflux/discord-irc
> 2. https://github.com/FruitieX/teleirc

-- 
Danh

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Taylor Blau]

On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 01:19:02PM -0400, Jeff King wrote:
> So if there is a critical mass of useful people that will hang out on
> the Matrix equivalent of #git (or whatever other tool), then that may
> become a new place. And people who want to do that should let people
> know where they can be found (whatever happens, I'd appreciate a PR to
> https://github.com/git/git-scm.com updating the "Community" page).

Emily tweeted today [1] that the #git channel on Freenode has been taken
over (presumably for violating their guideline that channels not mention
Libera in their description).

So using Libera seems like a good idea (although I agree that there is
no "official" place to go, and this is more about making people aware of
the new status-quo). In that case, here's a PR to update the "Community"
page on git-scm.com:

    https://github.com/git/git-scm.com/pull/1607

Thanks,
Taylor

[1]: https://twitter.com/nasamuffin/status/1397619871278530560

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Kevin Daudt]

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 02:47:26PM -0400, Taylor Blau wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 01:19:02PM -0400, Jeff King wrote:
> > So if there is a critical mass of useful people that will hang out on
> > the Matrix equivalent of #git (or whatever other tool), then that may
> > become a new place. And people who want to do that should let people
> > know where they can be found (whatever happens, I'd appreciate a PR to
> > https://github.com/git/git-scm.com updating the "Community" page).
> 
> Emily tweeted today [1] that the #git channel on Freenode has been taken
> over (presumably for violating their guideline that channels not mention
> Libera in their description).
> 
> So using Libera seems like a good idea (although I agree that there is
> no "official" place to go, and this is more about making people aware of
> the new status-quo). In that case, here's a PR to update the "Community"
> page on git-scm.com:
> 
>     https://github.com/git/git-scm.com/pull/1607
> 
> Thanks,
> Taylor
> 
> [1]: https://twitter.com/nasamuffin/status/1397619871278530560

We still manage #git, but #git-devel has been deowned and redirected to
##git-devel.

In the mean time, the ircops on libera helped us to register #git there
pending the official namespace registration from Junio (they have a
backlog, so they are working through that).

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Jan Krüger]

Here's a bit of an update on the situation.

freenode has, indeed, scorched the earth by destroying more than 700
channels, simply for mentioning Libera in the topic (before they even
added a rule that forbids this). I was willing to wait and see how the
"new" freenode was going to pan out, but with stuff like this happening
I don't see that as an option anymore. Basically I expect freenode to
keep destroying community with no prior notice whenever they feel like
it, and who wants to stay in a place like that?

On 26.05.2021 22:01, Kevin Daudt wrote:

> In the mean time, the ircops on libera helped us to register #git there
> pending the official namespace registration from Junio (they have a
> backlog, so they are working through that).

#git on Libera is already picking up steam, though the numbers aren't
quite on the same level yet. However, an arbitrary quorum of regulars 
has
decided that it's time to throw the switch.

* We've moved the gitinfo bot to Libera (which required a fair bit of
   code rewriting to support the differences between their respective
   ircds);
* The IRC logger has moved;
* The old channel's topic has a link to https://gitirc.eu/fnmove.html
   which explains the situation.

I expect that if anyone from freenode staff notices this, the channel
on freenode will get destroyed soon after...

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Thu, May 27 2021, Jan Krüger wrote:

> Here's a bit of an update on the situation.
>
> freenode has, indeed, scorched the earth by destroying more than 700
> channels, simply for mentioning Libera in the topic (before they even
> added a rule that forbids this). I was willing to wait and see how the
> "new" freenode was going to pan out, but with stuff like this happening
> I don't see that as an option anymore. Basically I expect freenode to
> keep destroying community with no prior notice whenever they feel like
> it, and who wants to stay in a place like that?

How have the channels been destroyed?

I'm still joined on freenode and #git has ~700ish users and the
liberachat one has ~300ish as I write this.

I see there was a mass action to revert topics that stated that channels
had moved, but e.g. #git@freenode still has active discussion about git,
among other things.

> On 26.05.2021 22:01, Kevin Daudt wrote:
>
>> In the mean time, the ircops on libera helped us to register #git there
>> pending the official namespace registration from Junio (they have a
>> backlog, so they are working through that).
>
> #git on Libera is already picking up steam, though the numbers aren't
> quite on the same level yet. However, an arbitrary quorum of regulars
> has
> decided that it's time to throw the switch.
>
> * We've moved the gitinfo bot to Libera (which required a fair bit of
>   code rewriting to support the differences between their respective
>   ircds);
> * The IRC logger has moved;
> * The old channel's topic has a link to https://gitirc.eu/fnmove.html
>   which explains the situation.
>
> I expect that if anyone from freenode staff notices this, the channel
> on freenode will get destroyed soon after...

I agree that ~300/~700 is quite the arbitrary quorum :)

I'm not going to weigh in on whatever pissing contest is going on over
at Freenode and related networks other than to say that it seems to me
that the goal(s) of the new owner/team or whatever is to try to prevent
some mass adversiting of the nature of "this network is
deprecated". "Destroying" prominent channels seems to be
conterproductive to that goal.

In any case, I agree with Jeff King's earlier comments that our primary
goal here should not be to pick sides, but to direct our users to useful
venues where they can get help, discuss git etc.

I don't see why we'd advertise #git@liberachat and not #git@freenode in
order to achieve that goal, the latter doesn't seem to be a graveyard
and is probably still more active. I don't see why we'd need to pick
between the two, any more than we'd pick between advertising
#git@liberachat and the git-users mailing list. Both currently seem like
useful venues for git users to go to get help.

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Felipe Contreras]

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:

> I don't see why we'd advertise #git@liberachat and not #git@freenode in
> order to achieve that goal, the latter doesn't seem to be a graveyard
> and is probably still more active. I don't see why we'd need to pick
> between the two, any more than we'd pick between advertising
> #git@liberachat and the git-users mailing list. Both currently seem like
> useful venues for git users to go to get help.

Agreed.

The primary purpose of an IRC channel should be to help users, and if
right now the person that could help a user is on freenode, so be it.

If the people with some political alignment want to emphasize
LiberaChat, that's fine, but keep mentioning freenode.

-- 
Felipe Contreras

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Taylor Blau]

On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 08:26:53PM -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
>
> > I don't see why we'd advertise #git@liberachat and not #git@freenode in
> > order to achieve that goal, the latter doesn't seem to be a graveyard
> > and is probably still more active. I don't see why we'd need to pick
> > between the two, any more than we'd pick between advertising
> > #git@liberachat and the git-users mailing list. Both currently seem like
> > useful venues for git users to go to get help.
>
> Agreed.
>
> The primary purpose of an IRC channel should be to help users, and if
> right now the person that could help a user is on freenode, so be it.
>
> If the people with some political alignment want to emphasize
> LiberaChat, that's fine, but keep mentioning freenode.

git-scm.com was updated recently to mention LiberaChat instead of
Freenode [1]. That was done to reflect the reality of [2]. I suspect that
will have been the right decision, but in case it isn't (and there are
still people hanging around in #git on Freenode), then I'd be in favor
of mentioning both.

For what it's worth, I also do not care about the Freenode versus Libera
(or vice-versa?) debacle. That said, I do think having one central place
for people to hang out is better than two (if for no other reason than
  it's fewer places to check or go to if you want help), but I would be
  fine if the status-quo were that there is an active #git channel on
  both Libera and Freenode.

Thanks,
Taylor

[1]: https://github.com/git/git-scm.com/pull/1608
[2]: https://lore.kernel.org/git/7e9683aee2c0fea2ff77b82bfa547e15@jk.gs/

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Felipe Contreras]

Taylor Blau wrote:
> On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 08:26:53PM -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> > Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
> >
> > > I don't see why we'd advertise #git@liberachat and not #git@freenode in
> > > order to achieve that goal, the latter doesn't seem to be a graveyard
> > > and is probably still more active. I don't see why we'd need to pick
> > > between the two, any more than we'd pick between advertising
> > > #git@liberachat and the git-users mailing list. Both currently seem like
> > > useful venues for git users to go to get help.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > The primary purpose of an IRC channel should be to help users, and if
> > right now the person that could help a user is on freenode, so be it.
> >
> > If the people with some political alignment want to emphasize
> > LiberaChat, that's fine, but keep mentioning freenode.
> 
> git-scm.com was updated recently to mention LiberaChat instead of
> Freenode [1]. That was done to reflect the reality of [2]. I suspect
> that will have been the right decision, but in case it isn't (and
> there are still people hanging around in #git on Freenode), then I'd
> be in favor of mentioning both.

As of this moment (2021-05-27T22:20:00-0500) there's 324 people on
Libera.Chat, and 762 on freenode.

So yeah... I'd say there are still people hanging around in #git on
freenode.

> For what it's worth, I also do not care about the Freenode versus
> Libera (or vice-versa?) debacle. That said, I do think having one
> central place for people to hang out is better than two (if for no
> other reason than it's fewer places to check or go to if you want
> help), but I would be fine if the status-quo were that there is an
> active #git channel on both Libera and Freenode.

Sure, one would be better than two, but rarely can we pick the reality
that is better... Reality just is.

Cheers.

-- 
Felipe Contreras

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Jan Krüger]

On 27.05.2021 23:54, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
> How have the channels been destroyed?
> 
> I'm still joined on freenode and #git has ~700ish users

#git was not affected, but many others were, including #git-devel...

> I see there was a mass action to revert topics that stated that 
> channels
> had moved

If that was all that had happened, I would totally agree. Unfortunately,
they did quite a bit more than that. They made a script that
automatically ran the following actions on channels that mentioned
"libera" in the topic:

* sent a vague message about a ToS violation to the channel;
* dropped the registration, including the full access list;
* set the channel to moderated;
* removed all ops;
* set an auto-forward to a similarly named topic channel (e.g.
   #git-devel forwarded to ##git-devel);
* made no attempt to give control of the topic channel to the previous
   community, i.e. the new channel would usually end up completely
   op-less and thus impossible to register at all. If it had been
   squatted by unrelated people beforehand, it would stay in their
   control.

This is equivalent to utter destruction in my view. #git was only not
affected because our message in the topic did not mention Libera by
name. Now of course we could just consider ourselves lucky and move on,
but personally I am deeply suspicious of a team that will do this kind
of thing seemingly on a whim, without even letting anyone know in
advance that this was considered a violation. Who knows what else they
are going to do on a whim in the future?

> I agree that ~300/~700 is quite the arbitrary quorum :)

I misspoke - it was an arbitrary quorum of the people who spend a lot of
time being active in #git, i.e. the people who are the most responsible
for keeping the channel alive. And the decision wasn't about killing the
freenode channel anyway...

> I'm not going to weigh in on whatever pissing contest is going on over
> at Freenode and related networks other than to say that it seems to me
> that the goal(s) of the new owner/team or whatever is to try to prevent
> some mass adversiting of the nature of "this network is
> deprecated". "Destroying" prominent channels seems to be
> conterproductive to that goal.

And yet that is what they did.

> In any case, I agree with Jeff King's earlier comments that our primary
> goal here should not be to pick sides, but to direct our users to 
> useful
> venues where they can get help, discuss git etc.

Sure... but several of us spoke about this and none of the particularly
active regulars I talked to want to keep being active on freenode
indefinitely. This will likely have effects on how active each channel
will be. Right now, several of us are still answering questions on
freenode, and nobody has made any attempt to shut down the channel
there. If it gets shut down, it will not be due to our actions. Maybe
due to our inaction, but even then there's nothing stopping others from
keeping the channel going.

I've updated my little page about this whole issue, to clarify that the
freenode channel is not closed or anything - but I feel like it's
relevant that several of the most active people intend on moving away
from it, and so I think it still makes sense leaving that message out
there. If it turns out that there is a significant fraction of active
"helpers" that intend to stay on freenode, I'll update again to reflect
that.

Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?

[Phillip Susi]

Jan Krüger writes:

> If that was all that had happened, I would totally agree. Unfortunately,
> they did quite a bit more than that. They made a script that
> automatically ran the following actions on channels that mentioned
> "libera" in the topic:
>
> * sent a vague message about a ToS violation to the channel;
> * dropped the registration, including the full access list;
> * set the channel to moderated;
> * removed all ops;
> * set an auto-forward to a similarly named topic channel (e.g.
>    #git-devel forwarded to ##git-devel);
> * made no attempt to give control of the topic channel to the previous
>    community, i.e. the new channel would usually end up completely
>    op-less and thus impossible to register at all. If it had been
>    squatted by unrelated people beforehand, it would stay in their
>    control.

Oh wow.  That's crossing a line for me.