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From: Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com>
To: Olof Johansson <olof@lixom.net>
Cc: Joel Fernandes <joelaf@google.com>,
	Barret Rhoden <brho@google.com>,
	ksummit <ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
	Jonathan Nieder <jrn@google.com>,
	Tomasz Figa <tfiga@chromium.org>,
	Han-Wen Nienhuys <hanwen@google.com>,
	Theodore Tso <tytso@google.com>,
	Dmitry Vyukov <dvyukov@google.com>,
	David Rientjes <rientjes@google.com>,
	Dmitry Torokhov <dtor@chromium.org>
Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] Allowing something Change-Id (or something like it) in kernel commits
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 18:09:23 -0700
Message-ID: <20190823010923.GC139536@dtor-ws> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAOesGMhOvjihHvncLaove80vr0qeOjtZ=HPLiMtSL+it84aGuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 06:05:29PM -0700, Olof Johansson wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 5:45 PM Olof Johansson <olof@lixom.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 5:43 PM Guenter Roeck <linux@roeck-us.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 8/22/19 5:30 PM, Olof Johansson wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 5:17 PM Linus Torvalds
> > > > <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 4:40 PM Doug Anderson <dianders@chromium.org> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The Linux kernel has always viewed these Change-Id tags as obnoxious
> > > >>> and useless spam.  Anyone who accidentally leaves a Change-Id in their
> > > >>> patch when posting to the mailing list is told to please re-post their
> > > >>> patch without the Change-Id.  In this email, I will attempt to argue
> > > >>> that the Linux kernel ought to relax this restriction and allow
> > > >>> (possibly even encourage) Change-Ids.
> > > >>
> > > >> No.
> > > >>
> > > >> Not without some ground rules.
> > > >>
> > > >>> To begin with, let me make sure we're on the same page about what
> > > >>> Change-Ids are.  As I understand it:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> * A change ID is much alike a UUID.  It is locally generated on a
> > > >>> developer's computer and is (in theory) unique across the universe.
> > > >>
> > > >> Completely irrelevant.
> > > >>
> > > >> The point of an UUID is not just that it's unique, but THAT YOU CAN
> > > >> LOOK SOMETHING UP USING IT!
> > > >>
> > > >> A "change ID" that I can't use to look anything up with is completely
> > > >> pointless and should be removed from kernel history.
> > > >>
> > > >> But if you have something unique that is actually useful for looking
> > > >> things up, then by all means. But it needs to be useful for
> > > >> _everybody_.
> > > >>
> > > >>> * When a developer keeps the same Change-Id across two patches they
> > > >>> are making the assertion that the two patches are either the same or
> > > >>> should be treated as two versions of the same logical change.
> > > >>
> > > >> .. and we have better ways to do that.
> > > >>
> > > >> For example, we are actively encouraging things like message ID's
> > > >> (which are _also_ a form of locally generated UUID, they just are more
> > > >> than the silly purely numerical one).
> > > >>
> > > >> That gives you the origin of something, but it also gives you the
> > > >> development history and context.
> > > >>
> > > >> But note that how when it comes to message ID's we encourage them in a
> > > >> form that actually also helps look that information up, ie the
> > > >> preferred form isn't just the message ID (although that exists), it's
> > > >> a link like
> > > >>
> > > >>      Link: https://lore.kernel.org/r/20190723065733.4899-5-leon@kernel.org
> > > >>
> > > >> instead of
> > > >>
> > > >>     Message-ID: 20190723065733.4899-5-leon@kernel.org
> > > >>
> > > >> even though technically they have just as much actual information in theory.
> > > >>
> > > >> Do you see people complaining about that kind of UUID? No.  Because it
> > > >> gives useful information to the project, and when something happens,
> > > >> people can look things up and _use_ that kind of UUID.
> > > >
> > > > For the actual open projects, the answer to this might be relative
> > > > easy: Most gerrit instances can feed a mailing list with emails of
> > > > both the initial patch, and later comments.
> > > >
> > > > Said emails would obviously have a Message-ID, and if the list is
> > > > added to lore, it can be referenced there.
> > > >
> > > > Note, even if the Change-Id had a full URL, there would be no archival
> > > > guarantee in the same way as lore gives us, so that approach alone
> > > > isn't useful. A URL to a "forever" mailing list archive seems like the
> > > > most stable possible reference.
> > > >
> > > > This doesn't address the full issue Doug was looking to solve, which
> > > > is the reverse mapping of "posted patch" to "previous version of the
> > > > patch". Patchwork tries to guess this, but it's best effort. I don't
> > > > have a great answer to this, besides possibly in-reply-to threading
> > > > and associating back that way via the email trail.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Wouldn't a direct link to the Gerrit instance solve the problem ?
> > > After all,
> > >
> > > Link: https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromiumos/third_party/kernel/+/1759334
> > >
> > > points to the same Gerrit entry as
> > >
> > > Change-Id: I5a2e33424e7fb19fed13afb854ae6546ef9bfa35
> > >
> > > and there would be no need to look anything up.
> >
> > Nope, for the same reason I already mentioned: In 2 years when Google
> > deprecates Chromium and EOL's the product and project (see: Reader,
> > Google+, Youtube messaging), there will be no way to get to the
> > history. (I know, unlikely in this case, but URLs move without
> > redirects, etc).
> >
> > Lore solves that, since it's externally archived.
> 
> Actually, it seems like the outgoing email already has suitable headers.
> 
> I looked up a random review, and viewed raw message:
> 
> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!original/chromium-os-reviews/Y2R_LLKytQw/M0TRRzfoAgAJ
> 
> X-Gerrit-Change-Id: I50d72612569743198825afdf41200c15db759076
> X-Gerrit-Change-Number: 1762035
> X-Gerrit-ChangeURL:
> <https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromiumos/third_party/kernel/+/1762035>
> X-Gerrit-Commit: 5b7dff2b2cb0b1a8769a53d59e387772ae569243
> 
> Since that would be captured in a mail archive, you could easily get
> it from there if needed.
> 
> Based on this, there's no reason to use opaque Change-Id, all the
> functionality needed can be reached through the mail URLs we already
> agreed are reasonable to use.
> 
> 
> (Someone should maybe tell Hao that he has the email address
> misspelled in his S-o-b).

This is however Gerrit-specific and I do not believe that Doug is
proposing to tie it all to Gerrit. I should be able to stick Change-Id
or tag we settle upon onto my outgoing patches and have it there without
any Gerrit involvement.

Thanks.

-- 
Dmitry

  reply index

Thread overview: 105+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-08-22 23:39 Doug Anderson
2019-08-23  0:03 ` Brendan Higgins
2019-08-23  0:17 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-08-23  0:30   ` Olof Johansson
2019-08-23  0:43     ` Guenter Roeck
2019-08-23  0:45       ` Olof Johansson
2019-08-23  1:05         ` Olof Johansson
2019-08-23  1:09           ` Dmitry Torokhov [this message]
2019-08-23  1:36         ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-08-23  2:58           ` Linus Torvalds
2019-08-23  3:03             ` Linus Torvalds
2019-08-23 13:15               ` Sean Paul
2019-08-23 15:18                 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-08-23 15:31                   ` Sean Paul
2019-08-23 15:48                     ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-23 16:19                       ` Dmitry Torokhov
2019-08-23 16:35                         ` Joel Fernandes
2019-08-23 16:45                           ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-23 16:54                             ` Joel Fernandes
2019-08-23 18:00                               ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-23 19:08                                 ` Joel Fernandes
2019-08-23 19:15                                   ` Joel Fernandes
2019-08-23 19:23                                     ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-23 19:31                                       ` Joel Fernandes
2019-08-24 16:53                                   ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-23 16:46                           ` Dmitry Torokhov
2019-08-23 19:17                             ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-23 19:38                               ` Laurent Pinchart
2019-08-23 21:15                                 ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-23 21:25                                   ` Mark Brown
2019-08-24 23:13                                   ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-08-25  7:09                                     ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-26 22:05                                       ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-28  8:50                                         ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-23 20:02                               ` Christian Brauner
2019-08-24 16:34                                 ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-24 18:11                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2019-08-24 23:04                                     ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-08-25  3:11                                       ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2019-08-27 10:51                                         ` Mark Brown
2019-09-09  8:14                                           ` Michael Ellerman
2019-09-09 12:09                                             ` Mark Brown
2019-08-26 17:13                                     ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-26 17:30                                       ` Joel Fernandes
2019-08-26 21:35                                         ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-26 21:51                                           ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-26 22:06                                             ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-26 22:19                                               ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-26 23:02                                           ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-08-26 23:11                                             ` Doug Anderson
2019-09-16 14:11                                               ` Christian Brauner
2019-09-16 17:43                                               ` Al Viro
2019-09-16 18:05                                                 ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-26 23:43                                             ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-28 12:34                                               ` Christian Brauner
2019-08-27  0:29                                             ` Dmitry Vyukov
2019-08-27  6:06                                               ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-27 13:24                                                 ` Dmitry Vyukov
2019-08-27 13:48                                                   ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2019-08-27 14:01                                                     ` Guenter Roeck
2019-08-27 14:09                                                       ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-27 15:33                                                         ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2019-08-27 15:42                                                           ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-27 18:55                                                           ` Konstantin Ryabitsev
2019-08-27 19:53                                                             ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2019-08-27 21:34                                                               ` Joel Fernandes
2019-08-27 21:38                                                                 ` Joel Fernandes
2019-08-28  9:08                                                                 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2019-08-28  9:25                                                                   ` Jani Nikula
2019-08-28 10:04                                                                   ` Martin K. Petersen
2019-08-28 10:53                                                                     ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-28 12:46                                                                       ` Martin K. Petersen
2019-08-28 10:42                                                                   ` Mark Brown
2019-08-28 11:41                                                                     ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2019-08-28 12:22                                                                   ` Christian Brauner
2019-08-28 12:38                                                                   ` Joel Fernandes
2019-08-28 13:58                                                                     ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-08-28 20:39                                                                       ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-28 20:46                                                                         ` Johannes Berg
2019-08-28 21:00                                                                           ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-28 22:15                                                                         ` Rob Herring
2019-08-27 17:34                                                       ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2019-08-27 18:50                                                         ` Guenter Roeck
2019-08-27 14:06                                                   ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-27  7:33                                               ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2019-08-27 13:30                                                 ` Dmitry Vyukov
2019-08-27 14:28                                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2019-08-27 15:06                                                     ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-27 15:25                                                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2019-08-28  8:57                                                         ` Dan Carpenter
2019-08-23 15:49                     ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-23 15:54                       ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-23 15:59                         ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-23 16:38                           ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-23 16:50                             ` Andrew Lunn
2019-08-23 17:50                               ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-23 18:10               ` Konstantin Ryabitsev
2019-08-26 22:19               ` Paul Mackerras
2019-08-27  7:02                 ` Stephen Rothwell
2019-08-23  9:09             ` Vlastimil Babka
2019-08-23 12:48               ` Bhaskar Chowdhury
2019-08-23  1:01   ` Dmitry Torokhov
2019-08-23  1:07   ` Doug Anderson
2019-08-23  1:18     ` Joel Fernandes
2019-09-05  8:12 ` Eric Wong

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