From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: James Bottomley Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 10:27:08 -0400 Subject: [Ksummit-discuss] [TECH TOPIC] Rust In-Reply-To: References: <2513dc4528c71d34d400c104e91ada6517869886.camel@HansenPartnership.com> Message-ID: Message-ID: <20220619142708.pYldRgCpVLaokVBL_GMJuU4SRqjoN9BS7UeCQ7iAmb4@z> On Sun, 2022-06-19 at 16:53 +0300, Laurent Pinchart wrote: > On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 07:19:38AM -0600, Jens Axboe wrote: > > On 6/19/22 6:56 AM, James Bottomley wrote: [...] > > > All that said, I expect once we start getting rust based patches, > > > it will quickly become apparent where the rust receptive > > > subsystems are and I would expect reviewers in those subsystems > > > will quickly become rust fluent. This doesn't answer the pain vs > > > gain aspect, but I suspect we won't know that until we actually > > > try. > > > > FWIW, I agree with you here, James. And I have to say that the > > original sentiment expressed here by Laurent is weirdly elitist, > > and not something that seems positive if that's the case. I'd > > suggest re-calibrating that mindset... > > I'm not sure about the elitist part, but it's certainly not a > positive statement. I'm concerned about the pain that rust in the > kernel would inflict. I get that, and I think it's a serious concern. I just also think we would waste more time second guessing this issue that we would consume if we just tried it. It's not like allowing Rust into the kernel is some sort of Rubicon that once crossed we can never go back. I think we won't know the pain vs gain until at least a year into the experiment of accepting Rust. Even at that late stage, if everyone agrees it caused more problems than it solves, I bet it could all be quickly excised. So the bottom line is I think while we have a community of volunteers willing to try it we let them on the understanding the results will be evaluated at some point. > Whether it's worth the gain or not is not for me to decide, > but I'm certainly concerned that it could lead to a catastrophe if we > don't carefully think about the issues, acknowledge them, and find > ways to solve them. I don't think winging it is a real option here, > but I'd be more than happy to be shown that my concerns are not > founded :-) Have more faith in the community and open source process. We've screwed up many times (devfs anyone ...) learned from the mistake and fixed it. I'm happy to bet that accepting Rust will be no different from all the other screwups we allowed in and later fixed. So I don't think there will be a catastrophe. Either the rust experiment works or it will become fairly quickly apparent if it doesn't and it will get removed. The worst case, I suppose, is that the benefit is marginal in which case there's no consensus on removal vs continuation and we simply continue through inertia. I bet in that situation Rust penetration will be fairly minimal and confined to enthusiastic subsystems with the rest taking steps to isolate themselves from it. What we'd need in this case is some opinionated person running the tree and able to make the call for us ... now who could that be? James