From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mout-xforward.gmx.net (mout-xforward.gmx.net [82.165.159.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D9377C; Sun, 2 Oct 2022 19:56:10 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1664740538; bh=z58l+Q+IkerwN7KaPTJTK+ncZ25u4fKAErMKRvwHOLE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=gQq7bojN+BiTUzUM6vBpsA7ZlZEKuEj4p3t4JXc1qaE15VIgHkUz+2KA7Bj/lFt2D AB2FYAOa3Sjusq7HyHkAOgumZ4w80IHf/IkIisVE1TwU1GflMF14ZAzp1pX1HsyKx9 zs0TAwX3Qpoq/qbmTmyc3g045JDB5O+3D+bV3KHo= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [10.13.110.23] ([143.244.37.73]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.184]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M42jK-1of53p33jc-0004Rp; Sun, 02 Oct 2022 21:55:37 +0200 Message-ID: <4ace3c9c-f1f5-eb7e-58cd-c2081f77fa0d@gmx.com> Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2022 19:55:35 +0000 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Planned changes for bugzilla.kernel.org to reduce the "Bugzilla blues" To: Willy Tarreau Cc: Theodore Ts'o , Thorsten Leemhuis , Konstantin Ryabitsev , workflows@vger.kernel.org, LKML , Linus Torvalds , "regressions@lists.linux.dev" , ksummit@lists.linux.dev, Mario Limonciello References: <9a2fdff8-d0d3-ebba-d344-3c1016237fe5@gmx.com> <83f6dd2b-784a-e6d3-ebaf-6ad9cfe4eefe@gmx.com> <79bb605a-dab8-972d-aa4a-a5e5ee49387c@gmx.com> <20221002175740.GA21700@1wt.eu> From: "Artem S. Tashkinov" In-Reply-To: <20221002175740.GA21700@1wt.eu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:QeBGdFhzym9DnEUO5i5xFh6vLgtvFsbjOg2Jz0KinZILYAbQaaj vXcMN9i7ahCjRGEen+0KUmMLzyP/lVzD7MRkFjygoN/xRrFHKxOigZ16+2COI2yBy3ykxkS gcCEC7HFHst13/b3Sql9m25P6X0E/rbL0ehIbE6K54naxGs4WJht4bjy1cY8q7Lgs3u/fdx XVRrh3VBH5bis4eAyCgqg== X-Spam-Flag: YES X-UI-Out-Filterresults: junk:10;V03:K0:pXy6/7oeDAI=:b1nIzqRp4IkQGXcEc8WKjI7g eXi/C4lt4OESxSknAC31MWV8mBG8s4pYm0Qr61f0pvlWhxMIpvSY5/Jd4DJA2Tq6wPTR3y6Y3 YOE/DXtB6sBY9NzT7t3OYhitzlmKWhGL1s0PgPQrPSuXJoYK1OGpazlDMRAxXGt58LXP8PKb4 YLd8x34gMU0Grfm3fIZI5wnXjhZ0F54AsiXIJfYeS84R66T2h9qsZf9GdmnemPYTk6HDV3RYs fo51w1xhiZoSxZyzDYrN+ygVISostL+AASutMlE8X0lNQS7uex/C40JADIRs+M01AhxxwaMbP doftY/LG/NaWr66XmtaC1UFBjvIjO+Sw1+9lh7X3o4ZIRlEQALOKoL/stj0nXpRVM/0v90ooO YZ6eEY6tuS43xhLyFgIWKXdOrIkyX1F11LnGkwgjToXbyPXFqj8P5OD6mFZmKyKaSohCS+rK1 S7SXJ2qsizgK18KpcWHAFuA9TI7DBhEoS1OJwH3ADt34Idn424eJzVlIiFoBewwe3xt8p/Pcr VPlIOcXy89Y3DNy3GnZsMqu5R1gzubYtq2/5XeI7gmlYnbVIyP1j7o4jqCuWqosffA+M9MJe9 aI0tL3gztcqIf5Ry2CDypWAqZx/UwbmMQfzUUvhhwMNw5lOcRZkmTvatQO+mrYCRC/LCpOsO2 z/0MjszHS0x8Hg5D7CNyGxwgJ2nqn/N2TXlu05SWVinCkzjZlvuZzJ69LUE9H8Xx/dlaajeox EkXnoR3w44T6qyRpTN3D+kI6g1oKHZQ7N/uxhMUauTyAJADzXmxJe88flq/kqeug/mMZzKWPj FCa0TWIPpIo5Dy1/hYOi82xuVPv/VmiSfaLf7W44MiyYc9yUK6SkK08/8Ng1DAgkwzX5cPZg6 YUbhfV52jZsJ31fWKxHiI3tCem1/y7wSQHqkZciBaAJ1GtF1UDppcrm8AvRrdxO0pRY8yqB/b sfS3GL0GgKetqcmtVEFtPE/VJzM/1+D2u7iAufhyZPzo238C1ANYaOiEepab/9IkLfxfnoN1Q CixmeOuQCNvjtQrgtT5T6LAP9M8/g58qbM87zuOWSJbPWtHUyao/PhOpjnnt+epr+pe4sodcW n2MP+OzrdeSZrrKiBcc3cDyAd0C5xK3x2asVPP5VD2LC4FMa4Bpvj/SQZV3+PlJ1Pdm2An3jG k0LEFAiCurqkEuoRKCPGIv+7Ahbq1ILI7tGi33MjOiN+NQ== On 10/2/22 17:57, Willy Tarreau wrote: > On Sun, Oct 02, 2022 at 12:49:04PM +0000, Artem S. Tashkinov wrote: >> The current ill-maintained semi-functional bugzilla has proven to be a >> ton more useful than random mailing lists no sane person can keep track >> of. Bug "reports", i.e. random emails are neglected and forgotten. LKML >> is the worst of them probably. > > You seem to completely miss the point. There's no need for *someone* to > keep track of the whole mailing lists, these mailing lists are used dail= y > by thousands of people. It's a *collective* effort. What matters is that > there exists someone among these people who will deal with your request. > Do patches fall through the cracks ? Sure! And so what ? The important > ones are eventually noticed or resent, and there's no harm in sending a > "ping" once in a while. Actually I find bug trackers worse for this, > because they give the reporter the impression that their report is being > handled while many times there's noone reading at the other end due to > the amount of stuff that has to be triaged. With mailing lists, a sender > who gets no response starts to wonder whether anything wrong happened an= d > is more naturally going to ask if the message was properly received, thu= s > reviving it. It's extremely rare that nobody responds to a retry on a fi= rst > message. I've given multiple reasons why mailing lists more often than not do not work at all, I won't repeat them again. You can open LKML right now and check all the unreplied emails where people complain about various issues. There are tons of such messages. > >> As I've said many times already: bugzilla must be an opt-out, not opt-i= n >> experience/option. > > That's the best way to make sure those who feel annoyed by this spam wil= l > just redirect the bug tracker's address to /dev/null and will never ever > receive any message from it anymore. That's quite a common pattern, I'm > surprised that it's even still proposed as a solution... Great, it's a single action which takes at most a minute. Why are people creating a drama out of it I've no idea. > >> Let's subscribe the past six months of developers using git commits and >> if someone doesn't like getting emails they go to the website and >> unsubscribe _once_ which takes a minute. This is a non-issue I've no >> clue why we're dwelling on it. > > Maybe because you have not yourself been spammed by bots that each > require a different way to unsubscribe/unregister/reconfigure options ? There's just one bugzilla. We are not talking about many bugzillas yet. > >> Let's operate with some examples: >> >> Bugzilla gets around two dozen bug reports weekly which encompass at >> most thirty emails, which equals to four emails daily on average. > > That's roughly what I was getting from github when I disabled all > notifications. > >> LKML alone sees up to a hundred emails _daily_. > > With a difference that these ones are not necessarily *read*, they're > *scanned* by many of us before being archived via a single- or two-key > shortcut, with a particular focus only on some messages or series > (hence the importance of a good subject). The problem is today you're scanning it, tomorrow you don't feel like it. An email gets lost, a problem is never addressed. Again most bug reports sent to LKML are completely neglected, and it's _not_ limited to LKML. Looks like that's what people here are advocating for. "We are not paid to deal with bug reports, so we prefer not to even hear about them". OK, let it be, let's deprecate bugzilla. Regards, Artem