From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mout-xforward.gmx.net (mout-xforward.gmx.net [82.165.159.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72B033D6A; Sun, 2 Oct 2022 21:54:11 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1664747640; bh=5LO6qyEA+cjuarBaf+/5igvJpoKOtXKDMvqDtaBSjH4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=CnaLOlY/qQDtKC7PTE6IeUrnaRYm8Pzh17mIszvkr3/FOysYqR/2YyzT948RotrhE bIqLYdH8LnBMiJwgvcz+xerje109g6hJ8dLtbZ0SJHLjg4W8uvn5qsumFwqZAsEpMQ W+i6MTqDjtlObvtiEIN6ygZ+I62lpBTckcqHZDEI= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [10.13.110.23] ([143.244.37.73]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.174]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M6ll8-1oZ4lC13ny-008I3k; Sun, 02 Oct 2022 23:54:00 +0200 Message-ID: <867b35b7-da2b-fed0-1f75-b2021d9be499@gmx.com> Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2022 21:53:58 +0000 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Planned changes for bugzilla.kernel.org to reduce the "Bugzilla blues" To: Willy Tarreau Cc: Konstantin Ryabitsev , Theodore Ts'o , Thorsten Leemhuis , Greg KH , workflows@vger.kernel.org, LKML , Linus Torvalds , "regressions@lists.linux.dev" , ksummit@lists.linux.dev, Mario Limonciello References: <83f6dd2b-784a-e6d3-ebaf-6ad9cfe4eefe@gmx.com> <79bb605a-dab8-972d-aa4a-a5e5ee49387c@gmx.com> <20221002150522.ul4nbtfawqjhnsag@meerkat.local> <20221002205430.GC22129@1wt.eu> <20221002213235.GA22532@1wt.eu> From: "Artem S. Tashkinov" In-Reply-To: <20221002213235.GA22532@1wt.eu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:i0y2oJPeNav/Ehn7JneId96ETemrst6Ju+njRRukNJlp1z0zJZa ual7h65AJ5tIdYHJrxzcTA34YCuuAMuxPmd5jfePmxw3x5yILPfXMnsGshsV0yvkkzC5wb5 QlpPMqF49mS8TkAUxwdN5hwxCrGzWSJo8wthwPvysnqvSCKCCLUKWDTkKZkaS+HQAVeZkqF VmV/Eib1FOkQtIYpkueYw== X-Spam-Flag: YES X-UI-Out-Filterresults: junk:10;V03:K0:/JUxT2HfbaA=:vdd56g1gJlgMuGm1FS4iAQeY EUaOLuLUuvo4WuqaK6zacrEqTTAHgIfv0wkyaF/Cag/8YVzzteHYU9VWyp9tHUTt/hxuY9GND TAL3sBiCAP4dhcjawC+LlVsgrMqQVBt/ZxAkS2VueQvq4c87Q9vqmPMHtNiXPCD9CZ3abBRAZ 8TRnUa5EpAtYtkbvi+FMiac4C8/Fl39VvwSr9CnX2L0w4QTxIF7zIVqNruZim64LCF1r1MNbV e1dJg4eO3ehyQ485ndIfqjwZs1FFSvVndMl32JiUwCL1S1t9hsjbCtnCGl/Dam8OKkLcMyN7x l7vgTsazEd7BLMqeLr4DBWXiiIWjE4ZnvavOo7IzFV+kD/zC1iySmNC0jS9kgGkdqZNawwnzs CJfo8An3a4K7IC7nYfaAk+fIgeTh+1n8dsEa+46MUB/MWomp0e4O8Y6Jfr8S4+UOJPMkXodBw esCo7cq2GhhIz9GEnU+Eeu6iqNtRSxBGQU24zBWVxdk/jX/Br1MvtMIZVYr/B15hpFO67pfi6 fGEaCq531EKw/DwBlZW1fPO8jPO3F5eX6MlP3E9fXmFGII0hvt+T2rH4WigNMAje1k+rE+Yls 4tYhlqa50rwvuZTbaILOyzsUAT8zxIBJnf4v2PxFx64+08uuzQaoUMrewCWmqmFDrUUECeXpE EjdK0X0s8OsY3cL/+dmXWxogZhvcFtwOg7IJOx3KEmYI1KjKmtlStYSdfm9vdLNSZfgyDkUgK PVfzQ9BLFKPW64qSU59CUW2IaArqbiwshcbw2pWQoyjKcCSD8Lr1RxQILe49gw1sXoWdBBMRu 3qehR5Yo/9G2Dk7lX+BC6BA/YVjwx1wQt4ewU8hQ3HQ/HNXQmUCMTjmgBlP3kuWZw48LubaD6 X+YD750V689Cl2W8c5vRZZFfdisHkPmn6ucDWEmaOpdsPFNTUUi7CPfyeEsuaTrxAKIhZgGh6 6RhMs/GcyO5J4nUNS2JDQADORMwZd2QPNegrz+VafRUUVWdoh8/vTwODjpdMksvlJp3J+K2My 7wtsAcZbG/1M6EaDQmKR2e2ynvcrF2YXYGQBXT6bi+dbFdKsr3j17van7yM3ZpceNeeqWUkvF 04eHu4dprbb9B8CeJwzjfGC2tLUpFYbZGbmzfdVZr6JiIf3LfPGjVG+JZINaN2WpRZ4WglqDI UbCtcRdJiAd7cPr5V3GpGVWUZdSe6i97Ki5ddRkx1rDJew== On 10/2/22 21:32, Willy Tarreau wrote: > On Sun, Oct 02, 2022 at 09:07:13PM +0000, Artem S. Tashkinov wrote: >>>> Why are people are now blowing stuff out of proportion for no reason? >>> >>> Because the approach is wrong. As I explained it gives a false sense t= o >>> the reporter that their issue is being handled while the simple fact t= hat >>> a message was sent to a person is in no way an engagement to do anythi= ng >>> about it. LKML is a broadcast area. Everyone hopes someone else will >>> respond and that eventually happens. When the reports are targetted, i= t >> >> No, it doesn't happen. Should I open LKML and send you a hundred of >> unreplied emails over the past year alone? > > If that makes you feel better, feel free to do so. I'm not scared by > only one hundred e-mails. What I'm impressed by, however, is that you're > able to spot that many unreplied e-mails because I don't see as many. If > you're that efficient at spotting them, maybe these are the ones you > should just resend to make sure they're seen, and it would require less > work (even on your side) than triaging issues. So, we've been worked up about a _possible_ SPAM issue and your response is ... create more SPAM? How does it solve all the other issues with email I've identified? > >> Just before I GTFO I will leave this bug report here (already posted it >> here but maybe I need to do it again and again): >> >> https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D204807 >> >> Tell me honestly how ~255 comments, and a ton of collaboration over the >> span of 2.5 years can be managed using email. > > What makes you think it would have taken that long over e-mail ? Between > your first report and the first reply "this is not a bug", 18 months had > elapsed already. The most active part of the discussion happened grouped > on 3 days (2021-03-19 -> 22), where there were already some "I'm removin= g > myself from the CC because the discussion isn't productive", then a larg= e > number of "me too" happened. Not sure how much useful this has been > overall to the involved developers, given that it's impossible to stay > focused on that long a thread and sum up all the information spanning > over that many kernel versions and that many different hardware. It's easy to join an existing bug report. Tell me how can I join an existing email thread without being first subscribed to it? I certainly can, absolute most people will not be able to. What about sending large dump files? Should everyone on the mailing list receive it? A bug report is a simple plain list of messages in a single place which could be read with a web browser. An email thread is anything but. Searching through many emails at once? Good luck with that. Replying to a particular email? Good luck with that. It looks like you're under the impression that every Linux user who is willing to ever use Linux must: 1) Subscribe to _all_ the existing mailing lists (just in case - what if you need to work on something which was started by someone else) 2) Know the email etiquette 3) Learn to be persistent and resend (an unknown number of times) your concerns hoping they will eventually be addressed. Bugzilla: sign up once. Follow up. If you file a dupe, hopefully it will be marked as a dupe. Everyone's happy. No particular skills, email clients, formatting, referencing, etc. etc. etc. All the developers busy and no one wants to work on your bug report? That's Linux, you've got it for free. Submit a patch or pay someone who'll fix your issue. Regards, Artem > > My gut feeling is that handling this over the ML would have resulted in: > - a few "sorry, no solution, try to fix your BIOS" > - "try this" =3D> "it works, thank you". > - "this fix above broke for me" > - and a few such iterations until a satisfying enough solution would > have been found. Maybe not in 2.5 years, maybe 6 months. > > But I could be wrong. I'm not claiming I know how people feel the most > efficient. Just observing what we're seeing on the lists and what I'm > used to dealing with in some bug trackers. If you want I can as well > show you a bug I reported 19 years ago that's still in state "NEW", > having seen little updates over the years. It had better been closed > since then, TBH: > > https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?format=3Dmultiple&id=3D118= 73 > > Pretty close to your demo above except it lasted 8 times longer and > has not seen progress by lack of interest. How's that different from > what you complain about mailing lists ? Hmm ? > > Willy