From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail-ed1-f53.google.com (mail-ed1-f53.google.com [209.85.208.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FC0B3FD3 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:13:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ed1-f53.google.com with SMTP id i6so11228821edu.1 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 14:13:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HGE/ztmqxPAMMdaU0wJ26aLoBnivxECwFW5W7+kR44c=; b=lIGBSs5CdFMRxeLtMNc+wq67N/1RWIO31mqkwc+5oBhsExCMkbJmX5ru0PA0SEon6p SM6fa5UFCG2oAXbjF8ZJTnxVgUXnRzk5/b88nEZiGvHRhlBDc1pISq9w0x77gKEW1IY5 dLbms6d9c7PosFLAaUHV0yNuM6nd+B1xT+xGUI/5N4QlU/qsxsbYWDdT9nbLTNfPTLyt BhEAboJxoZfUrDA36PQJjlc0f6lRCA8U4rMLxxyZY+JutvTMxLS6uK2jpnzaJTqphCNw KEXo0judxICqcFkZ6UcrW0m6vFuYuilH03iE3lg66a6yThZEW8eTbrmEaWs92L30n86R 0PUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HGE/ztmqxPAMMdaU0wJ26aLoBnivxECwFW5W7+kR44c=; b=ETzH2c+alcPgZA8gmuZU2QQk/XkgAN9tktRY1W6MYeFYC/LYaoXOji+VeR2K5qULcc 23VowRMqLanfc9BGX6syflkOc+ykQv8J7vr0XyLsBrPEHTpsQCOG1RugidhuhqsDgA1z XUQ22jc/2oC1jodmf6QPi89DBy/59xmja0u5AFOBqGM9tTlX/r5ubkfKUc1QaHvO87mK kPp/4dReZnULJLuMGMq460GBXRDoFtCXi6FN2ER/jCbF3PrvP9GcuWKD3Nd8NTKE1iBH 4cVEMMAWGotwPTlxQtvcdPuwASK01cN+ecsQQdT3KD6HHXKlGttk36q/Fvz8kR9bpUjP IBhg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5321u0l28GQ5He3BbRov9GWt8B3ll4qoV3S/J294diKpMtJz73Mq il/q+7Ovdi6Wk2aukHpQVZTsvC4e0o16rtGhhzA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJytwXKU+iVIoZZsSzlEbYkvibtqCeuLpEnzYimjhSc1NN6Zrfy6DCOMXVM6tbnrfUwl+3i+ACrAhk2MOVSV6IM= X-Received: by 2002:a50:f60a:: with SMTP id c10mr2329359edn.250.1631481180672; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 14:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87ilz8c7ff.ffs@tglx> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Airlie Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 07:12:49 +1000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [MAINTAINER SUMMIT] User-space requirements for accelerator drivers To: Daniel Vetter Cc: Greg KH , Leon Romanovsky , Laurent Pinchart , Thomas Gleixner , Josh Triplett , Mauro Carvalho Chehab , Jonathan Corbet , ksummit@lists.linux.dev Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 06:49, Daniel Vetter wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 10:41 PM Dave Airlie wrote: > > > So will the IB patches usage be re-reviewed? > > > > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-rdma/MW3PR11MB4555CCCDD42F1ADEC61F7ACAE5AB0@MW3PR11MB4555.namprd11.prod.outlook.com/ > > > > FYI it's a thread where GPU devs reviewing IB dma-buf patches, what's > > next cat and dogs living together? > > And as you can see, the review has been long and involved a ton of > different dri-devel (and rdma ofc too) folks. > > It's like there's an entire community of experts at hands who could > help out in reviewing these things, if only we'd not have a maintainer > who happily bypasses all that and invites all the dumpster fires into > drivers/misc. And then complains that no one helps with reviewing ... > -Daniel Daniel makes a good point here about "communities of experts". We need to foster those cross-vendor expert communities to sustain Linux going forward. For userspace components as well these communities of experts need to exist for each domain, and we need to encourage upstream first processes across the board for these split kernel/userspace stacks. The habanalabs compiler backend is an LLVM fork, I'd like to see the effort to upstream that LLVM backend into LLVM proper. When this sort of thing happens it gets on the radar of the LLVM compiler experts, instead of it just being the habanalabs experts. I've met so many internal company experts who remain unchallenged internally but buckle when introduced to true communities of expertise. If we want to keep this thing growing and maintainable we need to tap into those existing expertise groups. This is why it's important we foster userspace groups. If you hear the myth that only our company understands our hw enough to write code for it, it's been proven bullshit numerous times. It's an excuse for retaining control. Also if there was a shared runtime library repo with cross vendor review, I'm betting they'd all learn a lot about how a userspace should work and be maintained rather than assuming they knew it all themselves. Be more like spiderman, great maintainership + great responsibility. Dave.