From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from bombadil.infradead.org (bombadil.infradead.org [198.137.202.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D9EE7B for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 06:14:09 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=infradead.org; s=bombadil.20210309; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version :References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=xxHbe2nz0yzLQaJtQRwpNORmauX0ZMgk81/v5gP+S58=; b=KruKbeeFR4YOkIU/ix/CzKYfF6 3nGW9NLTNsMNv078FoLudLQENwD/eKDemEtYYuFkEFqeUkHI1AL5v+mbRIkKtbbRvmJ9OzougitlY +L/17w6C5PLNjNJtu7nQWG4byhu/CEdSAtWI0KmFUXQP3ILGjMf4NapS7dpWRI6vxG79hrNgPvyf/ IXhORNevI2Ec1jjH1qA2haK6r5fVzxpJxiHXnLmHljcr7+uZLYbst0UAEPSW+If27TUGIGJiawAQt NUGJEY3GCJTJq/mnnZcBk85tT02mL5hbuA0srGf3HeevSUlYE/JVBTrJUexMD5Ex+3p2HGZL5x5P/ BuDjg9rw==; Received: from hch by bombadil.infradead.org with local (Exim 4.94.2 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1o2oC7-00DKl5-Vf; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 06:14:00 +0000 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 23:13:59 -0700 From: Christoph Hellwig To: Laurent Pinchart Cc: Miguel Ojeda , ksummit , ksummit@lists.linux.dev Subject: Re: [TECH TOPIC] Rust Message-ID: References: Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by bombadil.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 11:42:07PM +0300, Laurent Pinchart wrote: > All previous topics but this one are technical. To restore the balance a > bit (and also because I believe it's important to the success of this > project :-)), I'd like to also discuss the impact on the kernel > maintenance at large, beyond just the maintainers who opt in to be early > adopters of rust in their subsystem. Yes. That is I think the most important point. I've played around with rust a bit for userspace project, and there is things I like a lot like strict type safety and the ownership model, and things I detest like verbose and unlogic syntax, the cargo cult of vendoring libraries instead of a sane shared library and versioning model (althought that should be largerly irrelevant for the kernel), and compared to many other languages it seems overall rather sane. But I'm really worried about the impact on the kernel, as interface between languages are a real pain, and so far I'm not convinced at all that this pain is worth the gain, even if that could change in the future. It doesn't help that the showcase seems to be binder, code that should have been in userspace from the start. Btw, a lot of these aspects also apply to the whole drivers in eBPF discussion. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Christoph Hellwig Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 23:13:59 -0700 Subject: [Ksummit-discuss] [TECH TOPIC] Rust In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Message-ID: <20220619061359.-AAQkEABQ-s1-uD0BunzGxIvw66dOGQ3-MfXbpUtYOw@z> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 11:42:07PM +0300, Laurent Pinchart wrote: > All previous topics but this one are technical. To restore the balance a > bit (and also because I believe it's important to the success of this > project :-)), I'd like to also discuss the impact on the kernel > maintenance at large, beyond just the maintainers who opt in to be early > adopters of rust in their subsystem. Yes. That is I think the most important point. I've played around with rust a bit for userspace project, and there is things I like a lot like strict type safety and the ownership model, and things I detest like verbose and unlogic syntax, the cargo cult of vendoring libraries instead of a sane shared library and versioning model (althought that should be largerly irrelevant for the kernel), and compared to many other languages it seems overall rather sane. But I'm really worried about the impact on the kernel, as interface between languages are a real pain, and so far I'm not convinced at all that this pain is worth the gain, even if that could change in the future. It doesn't help that the showcase seems to be binder, code that should have been in userspace from the start. Btw, a lot of these aspects also apply to the whole drivers in eBPF discussion.