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From: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>
To: Daniel Jordan <daniel.m.jordan@oracle.com>
Cc: rjw@rjwysocki.net, linux-pm@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org,
	kvm@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
	aarcange@redhat.com, aaron.lu@intel.com,
	akpm@linux-foundation.org, alex.williamson@redhat.com,
	bsd@redhat.com, darrick.wong@oracle.com,
	dave.hansen@linux.intel.com, jgg@mellanox.com,
	jwadams@google.com, jiangshanlai@gmail.com, mhocko@kernel.org,
	mike.kravetz@oracle.com, Pavel.Tatashin@microsoft.com,
	prasad.singamsetty@oracle.com, rdunlap@infradead.org,
	steven.sistare@oracle.com, tim.c.chen@intel.com, tj@kernel.org,
	vbabka@suse.cz
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v4 01/13] ktask: add documentation
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 11:35:54 +0100
Message-ID: <20181107103554.GL9781@hirez.programming.kicks-ass.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20181106203411.pdce6tgs7dncwflh@ca-dmjordan1.us.oracle.com>

On Tue, Nov 06, 2018 at 12:34:11PM -0800, Daniel Jordan wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 06, 2018 at 09:49:11AM +0100, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 05, 2018 at 11:55:46AM -0500, Daniel Jordan wrote:
> > > +Concept
> > > +=======
> > > +
> > > +ktask is built on unbound workqueues to take advantage of the thread management
> > > +facilities it provides: creation, destruction, flushing, priority setting, and
> > > +NUMA affinity.
> > > +
> > > +A little terminology up front:  A 'task' is the total work there is to do and a
> > > +'chunk' is a unit of work given to a thread.
> > 
> > So I hate on the task naming. We already have a task, lets not overload
> > that name.
> 
> Ok, agreed, it's a crowded field with 'task', 'work', 'thread'...
> 
> Maybe 'job', since nothing seems to have taken that in kernel/.

Do we want to somehow convey the fundamentally parallel nature of the
thing?

> > I see no mention of padata anywhere; I also don't see mention of the
> > async init stuff. Both appear to me to share, at least in part, the same
> > reason for existence.
> 
> padata is news to me.  From reading its doc, it comes with some special
> requirements of its own, like softirqs disabled during the parallel callback,
> and some ktask users need to sleep.  I'll check whether it could be reworked to
> handle this.

Right, padata is something that came from the network stack I think.
It's a bit of an odd thing, but it would be nice if we can fold it into
something larger.

> And yes, async shares the same basic infrastructure, but ktask callers need to
> wait, so the two seem fundamentally at odds.  I'll add this explanation in.

Why does ktask have to be fundamentally async?

> > > +Scheduler Interaction
> > > +=====================
> ...
> > > +It is possible for a helper thread to start running and then be forced off-CPU
> > > +by a higher priority thread.  With the helper's CPU time curtailed by MAX_NICE,
> > > +the main thread may wait longer for the task to finish than it would have had
> > > +it not started any helpers, so to ensure forward progress at a single-threaded
> > > +pace, once the main thread is finished with all outstanding work in the task,
> > > +the main thread wills its priority to one helper thread at a time.  At least
> > > +one thread will then always be running at the priority of the calling thread.
> > 
> > What isn't clear is if this calling thread is waiting or not. Only do
> > this inheritance trick if it is actually waiting on the work. If it is
> > not, nobody cares.
> 
> The calling thread waits.  Even if it didn't though, the inheritance trick
> would still be desirable for timely completion of the job.

No, if nobody is waiting on it, it really doesn't matter.

> > > +Power Management
> > > +================
> > > +
> > > +Starting additional helper threads may cause the system to consume more energy,
> > > +which is undesirable on energy-conscious devices.  Therefore ktask needs to be
> > > +aware of cpufreq policies and scaling governors.
> > > +
> > > +If an energy-conscious policy is in use (e.g. powersave, conservative) on any
> > > +part of the system, that is a signal that the user has strong power management
> > > +preferences, in which case ktask is disabled.
> > > +
> > > +TODO: Implement this.
> > 
> > No, don't do that, its broken. Also, we're trying to move to a single
> > cpufreq governor for all.
> >
> > Sure we'll retain 'performance', but powersave and conservative and all
> > that nonsense should go away eventually.
> 
> Ok, good to know.
> 
> > That's not saying you don't need a knob for this; but don't look at
> > cpufreq for this.
> 
> Ok, I'll dig through power management to see what else is there.  Maybe there's
> some way to ask "is this machine energy conscious?"

IIRC you're presenting at LPC, drop by the Power Management and
Energy-awareness MC.

  parent reply index

Thread overview: 54+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-11-05 16:55 [RFC PATCH v4 00/13] ktask: multithread CPU-intensive kernel work Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 01/13] ktask: add documentation Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 21:19   ` Randy Dunlap
2018-11-06  2:27     ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-06  8:49   ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-11-06 20:34     ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-06 20:51       ` Jason Gunthorpe
2018-11-07 10:27         ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-11-07 20:21           ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-07 10:35       ` Peter Zijlstra [this message]
2018-11-07 21:20         ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-08 17:26   ` Jonathan Corbet
2018-11-08 19:15     ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-08 19:24       ` Jonathan Corbet
2018-11-27 19:50   ` Pavel Machek
2018-11-28 16:56     ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 02/13] ktask: multithread CPU-intensive kernel work Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 20:51   ` Randy Dunlap
2018-11-06  2:24     ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 03/13] ktask: add undo support Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 04/13] ktask: run helper threads at MAX_NICE Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 05/13] workqueue, ktask: renice helper threads to prevent starvation Daniel Jordan
2018-11-13 16:34   ` Tejun Heo
2018-11-19 16:45     ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-20 16:33       ` Tejun Heo
2018-11-20 17:03         ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 06/13] vfio: parallelize vfio_pin_map_dma Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 21:51   ` Alex Williamson
2018-11-06  2:42     ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 07/13] mm: change locked_vm's type from unsigned long to atomic_long_t Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 08/13] vfio: remove unnecessary mmap_sem writer acquisition around locked_vm Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 09/13] vfio: relieve mmap_sem reader cacheline bouncing by holding it longer Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 10/13] mm: enlarge type of offset argument in mem_map_offset and mem_map_next Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 11/13] mm: parallelize deferred struct page initialization within each node Daniel Jordan
2018-11-10  3:48   ` Elliott, Robert (Persistent Memory)
2018-11-12 16:54     ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-12 22:15       ` Elliott, Robert (Persistent Memory)
2018-11-19 16:01         ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-27  0:12           ` Elliott, Robert (Persistent Memory)
2018-11-27 20:23             ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-19 16:29       ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 12/13] mm: parallelize clear_gigantic_page Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 16:55 ` [RFC PATCH v4 13/13] hugetlbfs: parallelize hugetlbfs_fallocate with ktask Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 17:29 ` [RFC PATCH v4 00/13] ktask: multithread CPU-intensive kernel work Michal Hocko
2018-11-06  1:29   ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-06  9:21     ` Michal Hocko
2018-11-07 20:17       ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-05 18:49 ` Zi Yan
2018-11-06  2:20   ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-06  2:48     ` Zi Yan
2018-11-06 19:00       ` Daniel Jordan
2018-11-30 19:18 ` Tejun Heo
2018-12-01  0:13   ` Daniel Jordan
2018-12-03 16:16     ` Tejun Heo

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