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From: Alexandre Chartre <alexandre.chartre@oracle.com>
To: Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>
Cc: Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@intel.com>,
	pbonzini@redhat.com, rkrcmar@redhat.com, mingo@redhat.com,
	bp@alien8.de, hpa@zytor.com, dave.hansen@linux.intel.com,
	luto@kernel.org, kvm@vger.kernel.org, x86@kernel.org,
	linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
	konrad.wilk@oracle.com, jan.setjeeilers@oracle.com,
	liran.alon@oracle.com, jwadams@google.com, graf@amazon.de,
	rppt@linux.vnet.ibm.com, Paul Turner <pjt@google.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC v2 00/27] Kernel Address Space Isolation
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 18:37:47 +0200
Message-ID: <3ca70237-bf8e-57d9-bed5-bc2329d17177@oracle.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.1907121459180.1788@nanos.tec.linutronix.de>



On 7/12/19 5:16 PM, Thomas Gleixner wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 01:56:44PM +0200, Alexandre Chartre wrote:
>>
>>> I think that's precisely what makes ASI and PTI different and independent.
>>> PTI is just about switching between userland and kernel page-tables, while
>>> ASI is about switching page-table inside the kernel. You can have ASI without
>>> having PTI. You can also use ASI for kernel threads so for code that won't
>>> be triggered from userland and so which won't involve PTI.
>>
>> PTI is not mapping         kernel space to avoid             speculation crap (meltdown).
>> ASI is not mapping part of kernel space to avoid (different) speculation crap (MDS).
>>
>> See how very similar they are?
>>
>> Furthermore, to recover SMT for userspace (under MDS) we not only need
>> core-scheduling but core-scheduling per address space. And ASI was
>> specifically designed to help mitigate the trainwreck just described.
>>
>> By explicitly exposing (hopefully harmless) part of the kernel to MDS,
>> we reduce the part that needs core-scheduling and thus reduce the rate
>> the SMT siblngs need to sync up/schedule.
>>
>> But looking at it that way, it makes no sense to retain 3 address
>> spaces, namely:
>>
>>    user / kernel exposed / kernel private.
>>
>> Specifically, it makes no sense to expose part of the kernel through MDS
>> but not through Meltdow. Therefore we can merge the user and kernel
>> exposed address spaces.
>>
>> And then we've fully replaced PTI.
>>
>> So no, they're not orthogonal.
> 
> Right. If we decide to expose more parts of the kernel mappings then that's
> just adding more stuff to the existing user (PTI) map mechanics.
  

If we expose more parts of the kernel mapping by adding them to the existing
user (PTI) map, then we only control the mapping of kernel sensitive data but
we don't control user mapping (with ASI, we exclude all user mappings).

How would you control the mapping of userland sensitive data and exclude them
from the user map? Would you have the application explicitly identify sensitive
data (like Andy suggested with a /dev/xpfo device)?

Thanks,

alex.


> As a consequence the CR3 switching points become different or can be
> consolidated and that can be handled right at those switching points
> depending on static keys or alternatives as we do today with PTI and other
> mitigations.
> 
> All of that can do without that obscure "state machine" which is solely
> there to duct-tape the complete lack of design. The same applies to that
> mapping thing. Just mapping randomly selected parts by sticking them into
> an array is a non-maintainable approach. This needs proper separation of
> text and data sections, so violations of the mapping constraints can be
> statically analyzed. Depending solely on the page fault at run time for
> analysis is just bound to lead to hard to diagnose failures in the field.
> 
> TBH we all know already that this can be done and that this will solve some
> of the issues caused by the speculation mess, so just writing some hastily
> cobbled together POC code which explodes just by looking at it, does not
> lead to anything else than time waste on all ends.
> 
> This first needs a clear definition of protection scope. That scope clearly
> defines the required mappings and consequently the transition requirements
> which provide the necessary transition points for flipping CR3.
> 
> If we have agreed on that, then we can think about the implementation
> details.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 	tglx
> 

  reply index

Thread overview: 66+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-07-11 14:25 Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 01/26] mm/x86: Introduce kernel address space isolation Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 21:33   ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-07-12  7:43     ` Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 02/26] mm/asi: Abort isolation on interrupt, exception and context switch Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 20:11   ` Andi Kleen
2019-07-11 20:17     ` Mike Rapoport
2019-07-11 20:41       ` Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-12  0:05   ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-12  7:50     ` Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 03/26] mm/asi: Handle page fault due to address space isolation Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 04/26] mm/asi: Functions to track buffers allocated for an ASI page-table Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 05/26] mm/asi: Add ASI page-table entry offset functions Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 06/26] mm/asi: Add ASI page-table entry allocation functions Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 07/26] mm/asi: Add ASI page-table entry set functions Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 08/26] mm/asi: Functions to populate an ASI page-table from a VA range Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 09/26] mm/asi: Helper functions to map module into ASI Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 10/26] mm/asi: Keep track of VA ranges mapped in ASI page-table Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 11/26] mm/asi: Functions to clear ASI page-table entries for a VA range Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 12/26] mm/asi: Function to copy page-table entries for percpu buffer Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 13/26] mm/asi: Add asi_remap() function Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 14/26] mm/asi: Handle ASI mapped range leaks and overlaps Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 15/26] mm/asi: Initialize the ASI page-table with core mappings Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 16/26] mm/asi: Option to map current task into ASI Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 17/26] rcu: Move tree.h static forward declarations to tree.c Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 18/26] rcu: Make percpu rcu_data non-static Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 19/26] mm/asi: Add option to map RCU data Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 20/26] mm/asi: Add option to map cpu_hw_events Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 21/26] mm/asi: Make functions to read cr3/cr4 ASI aware Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 22/26] KVM: x86/asi: Introduce address_space_isolation module parameter Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 23/26] KVM: x86/asi: Introduce KVM address space isolation Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 24/26] KVM: x86/asi: Populate the KVM ASI page-table Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 25/26] KVM: x86/asi: Switch to KVM address space on entry to guest Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:25 ` [RFC v2 26/26] KVM: x86/asi: Map KVM memslots and IO buses into KVM ASI Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 14:40 ` [RFC v2 00/27] Kernel Address Space Isolation Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-11 22:38 ` Dave Hansen
2019-07-12  8:09   ` Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-12 13:51     ` Dave Hansen
2019-07-12 14:06       ` Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-12 15:23         ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-07-12 10:44   ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-07-12 11:56     ` Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-12 12:50       ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-07-12 13:43         ` Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-12 13:58           ` Dave Hansen
2019-07-12 14:36           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-14 18:17             ` Alexander Graf
2019-07-12 13:54         ` Dave Hansen
2019-07-12 15:20           ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-07-12 15:16         ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-07-12 16:37           ` Alexandre Chartre [this message]
2019-07-12 16:45             ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-14 17:11               ` Mike Rapoport
2019-07-12 19:06             ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-07-14 15:06               ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-15 10:33                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-07-12 19:48             ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-07-15  8:23               ` Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-15  8:28                 ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-07-12 16:00       ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-07-12 11:44 ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-07-12 12:17   ` Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-12 12:36     ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-07-12 12:47       ` Alexandre Chartre
2019-07-12 13:07         ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-07-12 13:46           ` Alexandre Chartre

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