Linux-ACPI Archive on lore.kernel.org
 help / color / Atom feed
From: Jonathan Cameron <Jonathan.Cameron@Huawei.com>
To: Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
Cc: Ira Weiny <ira.weiny@intel.com>, <linux-cxl@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linux PCI <linux-pci@vger.kernel.org>,
	Bjorn Helgaas <helgaas@kernel.org>,
	"Lorenzo Pieralisi" <lorenzo.pieralisi@arm.com>,
	Ben Widawsky <ben.widawsky@intel.com>,
	Chris Browy <cbrowy@avery-design.com>,
	Linux ACPI <linux-acpi@vger.kernel.org>,
	"Schofield, Alison" <alison.schofield@intel.com>,
	Vishal L Verma <vishal.l.verma@intel.com>,
	Linuxarm <linuxarm@huawei.com>, Fangjian <f.fangjian@huawei.com>,
	Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v3 2/4] PCI/doe: Add Data Object Exchange support
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 16:11:56 +0100
Message-ID: <20210519161156.00003bf9@Huawei.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAPcyv4g3JPtAHzemKdQiM44ZkZ_0u+U-UJ5mfeU3fKzRWuaDyQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 19 May 2021 07:18:28 -0700
Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com> wrote:

> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 3:06 AM Jonathan Cameron
> <Jonathan.Cameron@huawei.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:21:14 -0700
> > Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com> wrote:
> >  
> > > On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 1:42 AM Jonathan Cameron
> > > <Jonathan.Cameron@huawei.com> wrote:  
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 14 May 2021 11:37:12 -0700
> > > > Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com> wrote:
> > > >  
> > > > > On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 1:50 AM Jonathan Cameron
> > > > > <Jonathan.Cameron@huawei.com> wrote:
> > > > > [..]  
> > > > > > > If it simplifies the kernel implementation to assume single
> > > > > > > kernel-initiator then I think that's more than enough reason to block
> > > > > > > out userspace, and/or provide userspace a method to get into the
> > > > > > > kernel's queue for service.  
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This last suggestion makes sense to me. Let's provide a 'right' way
> > > > > > to access the DOE from user space. I like the idea if it being possible
> > > > > > to run CXL compliance tests from userspace whilst the driver is loaded.  
> > > > >
> > > > > Ah, and I like your observation that once the kernel provides a
> > > > > "right" way to access DOE then userspace direct-access of DOE is
> > > > > indeed a "you get to keep the pieces" event like any other unwanted
> > > > > userspace config-write.
> > > > >  
> > > > > > Bjorn, given this would be a generic PCI thing, any preference for what
> > > > > > this interface might look like?   /dev/pcidoe[xxxxxx].i with ioctls similar
> > > > > > to those for the BAR based CXL mailboxes?  
> > > > >
> > > > > (warning, anti-ioctl bias incoming...)  
> > > >
> > > > I feel very similar about ioctls - my immediate thought was to shove this in
> > > > debugfs, but that feels the wrong choice if we are trying to persuade people
> > > > to use it instead of writing code that directly accesses the config space.
> > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmm, DOE has an enumeration capability, could the DOE driver use a
> > > > > scheme to have a sysfs bin_attr per discovered object type? This would
> > > > > make it simliar to the pci-vpd sysfs interface.  
> > > >
> > > > We can discover the protocols, but anything beyond that is protocol
> > > > specific.  I don't think there is a enough info available by any standards
> > > > defined method. Also part of the reason to allow a safe userspace interface
> > > > would be to provide a generic interface for vendor protocols and things like
> > > > CXL compliance tests where we will almost certainly never provide a more
> > > > specific kernel interface.
> > > >
> > > > Whilst sysfs would work for CDAT, some protocols are challenge response rather
> > > > than simple read back and that really doesn't fit well for sysfs model.
> > > > If we get other protocols that are simple data read back, then I would
> > > > advocate giving them a simple sysfs interface much like proposed for CDAT
> > > > as it will always be simpler to use + self describing.
> > > >
> > > > On a lesser note it might be helpful to provide sysfs attrs for
> > > > what protocols are supported.  The alternative is to let userspace run
> > > > the discovery protocol. Perhaps we can do this as a later phase.
> > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > Then the kernel could cache objects like CDAT that don't change
> > > > > outside of some invalidation event.  
> > > >
> > > > It's been a while since I last saw any conversation on sysfs bin_attrs
> > > > but mostly I thought the feeling was pretty strongly against them for anything
> > > > but a few niche usecases.
> > > >
> > > > Feels to me like it would break most of the usual rules in a way vpd does
> > > > not (IIRC VPD is supposed to be a simple in the sense that if you write a value
> > > > to a writable part, you will read back the same value).
> > > >
> > > > +CC Greg who is a fount of knowledge in this area (and regularly + correctly
> > > > screams at the ways I try to abuse sysfs :)  Note I don't think Dan was
> > > > suggesting implementing response / request directly, but I think that is
> > > > all we could do given DOE protocols can be vendor specific and the standard
> > > > discovery protocol doesn't let us know the fine grained support (what commands
> > > > within a given protocol).  
> > >
> > > I'm not all that interested in supporting vendor defined DOE
> > > shenanigans. There's more than enough published DOE protocols that the
> > > kernel could limit its support to the known set. This is similar to
> > > how ACPI DSMs are not generically supported, but when they appear in a
> > > published specification the kernel may then grow the support. The
> > > supported protocols could be limited to: CDAT, PCIe IDE, CXL
> > > Compliance, etc...
> > >
> > > Vendor specific DOE is in the same class as unfettered /dev/mem
> > > access, first you need to disable the kernel's integrity and
> > > confidentiality protections, and then you can do whatever you want. If
> > > a vendor wants a DOE protocol supported in the "trusted" set they can
> > > simply publish the specification and send the proper support patches.  
> >
> > Fair enough, though the interface should be root only, so a vendor shooting
> > themselves in the foot this way would be no different to using pcitools
> > to access the device directly (we are just providing safety from concurrency
> > point of view).
> >
> > Anyway, I can see two options for how to do this.
> >
> > 1) Per protocol interface. Would not be generic, as these work in entirely
> >    different ways (some are simple read back of tables, some require complex
> >    cycles of operations in the right order with data flowing in both directions)
> > 2) White list those protocols we are going to let through a generic interface
> >    Not including CXL compliance for instance as that has nasty side effects!
> >
> > If we want to enable userspace DOE access, I prefer option 2.
> >
> > Note that I wasn't that keen on a userspace interface in the first place as
> > in my view these should all be handled in kernel.
> > Ultimately we should have case 1 if userspace access make sense.
> > However, if we do this we shouldn't pretend we are providing userspace
> > access to the DOE at all.  We are providing interfaces to things that just
> > happen to be implemented using DOE under the hood.
> >
> > I have a prototype of a trivial ioctl based interface. I'll send it out
> > as an RFC later this week.  Might add a white list, depending on where
> > this discussion goes.
> >  
> 
> I'd say let's do this in typical Linux fashion and not solve future
> problems before they need to be solved. I.e. start small and build
> incrementally. To me that looks like a sysfs interface to convey a
> cached copy of a CDAT with an internal interface for a driver to
> trigger invalidations and re-reads on the next access. This would
> assume that userspace may have left the DOE in an indeterminate state
> and an abort cycle may be needed. A 1 second delay for the rare case
> where a collision is detected seems reasonable for just CDAT
> retrieval.

The problem is you can not detect a collision. Hence it's a reset every
time you use the DOE from in the kernel. Personally I think that this
is fixing a problem that doesn't exist. Userspace should not access
the DOE when a driver is loaded in exactly the same way it shouldn't
be writing to anywhere else in config space under normal circumstances.
I really don't see this as special. If we think it is special then
we should provide a safe interface.

Given it's nearly done, I might send out the ioctl proposal and
we can can just decide to leave it unmerged for now, pending real
usecases being established.

Jonathan





  reply index

Thread overview: 31+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-04-19 16:54 [RFC PATCH v3 0/4] PCI Data Object Exchange support + CXL CDAT Jonathan Cameron
2021-04-19 16:54 ` [RFC PATCH v3 1/4] PCI: Add vendor ID for the PCI SIG Jonathan Cameron
2021-04-19 16:54 ` [RFC PATCH v3 2/4] PCI/doe: Add Data Object Exchange support Jonathan Cameron
2021-05-06 21:59   ` Ira Weiny
2021-05-11 16:50     ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-05-13 21:20       ` Dan Williams
2021-05-14  8:47         ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-05-14 11:15           ` Lorenzo Pieralisi
2021-05-14 12:39             ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-05-14 18:37           ` Dan Williams
2021-05-17  8:40             ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-05-17  8:51               ` Greg KH
2021-05-17 17:21               ` Dan Williams
2021-05-18 10:04                 ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-05-19 14:18                   ` Dan Williams
2021-05-19 15:11                     ` Jonathan Cameron [this message]
2021-05-19 15:29                       ` Dan Williams
2021-05-19 16:20                         ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-05-19 16:33                           ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-05-19 16:53                             ` Dan Williams
2021-05-19 17:00                               ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-05-19 19:20                                 ` Dan Williams
2021-05-19 20:18                                   ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-05-19 23:51                                     ` Dan Williams
2021-05-20  0:16                                       ` Dan Williams
2021-05-20  8:22                                       ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-05-07  9:36   ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-05-07 23:10   ` Bjorn Helgaas
2021-05-12 12:44     ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-04-19 16:54 ` [RFC PATCH v3 3/4] cxl/mem: Add CDAT table reading from DOE Jonathan Cameron
2021-04-19 16:54 ` [RFC PATCH v3 4/4] cxl/mem: Add a debug parser for CDAT commands Jonathan Cameron

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=20210519161156.00003bf9@Huawei.com \
    --to=jonathan.cameron@huawei.com \
    --cc=alison.schofield@intel.com \
    --cc=ben.widawsky@intel.com \
    --cc=cbrowy@avery-design.com \
    --cc=dan.j.williams@intel.com \
    --cc=f.fangjian@huawei.com \
    --cc=gregkh@linuxfoundation.org \
    --cc=helgaas@kernel.org \
    --cc=ira.weiny@intel.com \
    --cc=linux-acpi@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-cxl@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-pci@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linuxarm@huawei.com \
    --cc=lorenzo.pieralisi@arm.com \
    --cc=vishal.l.verma@intel.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link

Linux-ACPI Archive on lore.kernel.org

Archives are clonable:
	git clone --mirror https://lore.kernel.org/linux-acpi/0 linux-acpi/git/0.git

	# If you have public-inbox 1.1+ installed, you may
	# initialize and index your mirror using the following commands:
	public-inbox-init -V2 linux-acpi linux-acpi/ https://lore.kernel.org/linux-acpi \
		linux-acpi@vger.kernel.org
	public-inbox-index linux-acpi

Example config snippet for mirrors

Newsgroup available over NNTP:
	nntp://nntp.lore.kernel.org/org.kernel.vger.linux-acpi


AGPL code for this site: git clone https://public-inbox.org/public-inbox.git