Linux-api Archive on lore.kernel.org
 help / color / Atom feed
From: Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@intel.com>
To: Yu-cheng Yu <yu-cheng.yu@intel.com>,
	x86@kernel.org, "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@redhat.com>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-api@vger.kernel.org, Arnd Bergmann <arnd@arndb.de>,
	Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>,
	Balbir Singh <bsingharora@gmail.com>,
	Borislav Petkov <bp@alien8.de>,
	Cyrill Gorcunov <gorcunov@gmail.com>,
	Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@linux.intel.com>,
	Eugene Syromiatnikov <esyr@redhat.com>,
	Florian Weimer <fweimer@redhat.com>,
	"H.J. Lu" <hjl.tools@gmail.com>, Jann Horn <jannh@google.com>,
	Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net>,
	Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
	Mike Kravetz <mike.kravetz@oracle.com>,
	Nadav Amit <nadav.amit@gmail.com>,
	Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>, Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
	Randy Dunlap <rdunlap@infradead.org>,
	"Ravi V. Shankar" <ravi.v.shankar@intel.com>,
	Vedvyas Shanbhogue <vedvyas.shanbhogue@intel.com>,
	Dave Martin <Dave.Martin@arm.com>,
	Weijiang Yang <weijiang.yang@intel.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v10 01/26] Documentation/x86: Add CET description
Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 15:43:56 -0700
Message-ID: <32235ffc-6e6c-fb3d-80c4-a0478e2d0e0f@intel.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <44c055342bda4fb4730703f987ae35195d1d0c38.camel@intel.com>

On 5/15/20 2:33 PM, Yu-cheng Yu wrote:
> On Fri, 2020-05-15 at 11:39 -0700, Dave Hansen wrote:
>> On 5/12/20 4:20 PM, Yu-cheng Yu wrote:
>> Can a binary compiled with CET run without CET?
> 
> Yes, but a few details:
> 
> - The shadow stack is transparent to the application.  A CET application does
> not have anything different from a non-CET application.  However, if a CET
> application uses any CET instructions (e.g. INCSSP), it must first check if CET
> is turned on.
> - If an application is compiled for IBT, the compiler inserts ENDBRs at branch
> targets.  These are nops if IBT is not on.

I appreciate the detailed response, but it wasn't quite what I was
asking.  Let's ignore IBT for now and just talk about shadow stacks.

An app compiled with the new ELF flags and running on a CET-enabled
kernel and CPU will start off with shadow stacks allocated and enabled,
right?  It can turn its shadow stack off per-thread with the new prctl.
 But, otherwise, it's stuck, the only way to turn shadow stacks off at
startup would be editing the binary.

Basically, if there ends up being a bug in an app that violates the
shadow stack rules, the app is broken, period.  The only recourse is to
have the kernel disable CET and reboot.

Is that right?

>> Can a binary compiled without CET run CET-enabled code?
> 
> Partially yes, but in reality somewhat difficult.
...
> - If a not-CET application does fork(), and the child wants to turn on CET, it
> would be difficult to manage the stack frames, unless the child knows what is is
> doing.  

It might be hard to do, but it is possible with the patches you posted?
 I think you're saying that the CET-enabled binary would do
arch_setup_elf_property() when it was first exec()'d.  Later, it could
use the new prctl(ARCH_X86_CET_DISABLE) to disable its shadow stack,
then fork() and the child would not be using CET.  Right?

What is ARCH_X86_CET_DISABLE used for, anyway?

> The JIT examples I mentioned previously run with CET enabled from the
> beginning.  Do you have a reason to do this?  In other words, if the JIT code
> needs CET, the app could have started with CET in the first place.

Let's say I have a JIT'd sandbox.  I want the sandbox to be
CET-protected, but the JIT engine itself not to be.

> - If you are asking about dlopen(), the library will have the same setting as
> the main application.  Do you have any reason to have a library running with
> CET, but the application does not have CET?

Sure, using old binaries.  That's why IBT has a legacy bitmap and things
like MPX had ways of jumping into old non-enabled binaries.

>> Can different threads in a process have different CET enabling state?
> 
> Yes, if the parent starts with CET, children can turn it off.

How would that work, though?  clone() by default will copy the parent
xsave state, which means it will be CET-enabled, which means it needs a
shadow stack.  So, if I want a CET-free child thread, I need to clone(),
then turn CET off, then free the shadow stack?

>> Does this *code* work?  Could you please indicate which JITs have been
>> enabled to use the code in this series?  How much of the new ABI is in use?
> 
> JIT does not necessarily use all of the ABI.  The JIT changes mainly fix stack
> frames and insert ENDBRs.  I do not work on JIT.  What I found is LLVM JIT fixes
> are tested and in the master branch.  Sljit fixes are in the release.

Huh, so who is using the new prctl() ABIs?

>> Where are the selftests/ for this new ABI?  Were you planning on
>> submitting any with this series?
> 
> The ABI is more related to the application side, and therefore most suitable for
> GLIBC unit tests.

I was mostly concerned with the kernel selftests.  The things in
tools/testing/selftests/x86 in the kernel tree.

> The more complicated areas such as pthreads, signals, ucontext,
> fork() are all included there.  I have been constantly running these 
> tests without any problems.  I can provide more details if testing is
> the concern.

For something this complicated, with new kernel ABIs, we need an
in-kernel sefltest.

MPX was not that much different from this feature.  It required a
boatload of compiler and linker changes to function.  Yet, there was a
simple in-kernel test for it that didn't require *any* of that big pile
of toolchain bits.

Is there a reason we don't have one of those for CET?

  reply index

Thread overview: 62+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-04-29 22:07 [PATCH v10 00/26] Control-flow Enforcement: Shadow Stack Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 01/26] Documentation/x86: Add CET description Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:53   ` Dave Hansen
2020-04-29 23:02     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-12 23:20       ` Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-15 18:39         ` Dave Hansen
2020-05-15 21:33           ` Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-15 22:43             ` Dave Hansen [this message]
2020-05-15 23:29               ` Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-15 23:56                 ` Dave Hansen
2020-05-16  2:51                   ` H.J. Lu
2020-05-17 23:09                     ` Dave Hansen
2020-05-16  2:53                   ` Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-18 13:41                     ` Dave Hansen
2020-05-18 14:01                       ` H.J. Lu
2020-05-18 14:26                         ` Dave Hansen
2020-05-18 14:21                       ` Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-18 23:47                     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-19  0:38                       ` Dave Hansen
2020-05-19  1:35                         ` Andy Lutomirski
2020-05-20  1:04                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2020-05-29  2:08                             ` Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-16  0:13               ` Andrew Cooper
2020-05-16  2:37                 ` H.J. Lu
2020-05-16 14:09                   ` Andrew Cooper
2020-05-22 16:49                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2020-05-22 17:48                       ` Andrew Cooper
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 02/26] x86/cpufeatures: Add CET CPU feature flags for Control-flow Enforcement Technology (CET) Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 03/26] x86/fpu/xstate: Introduce CET MSR XSAVES supervisor states Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 04/26] x86/cet: Add control-protection fault handler Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 05/26] x86/cet/shstk: Add Kconfig option for user-mode Shadow Stack Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-07 15:55   ` Dave Hansen
2020-05-07 16:59     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 06/26] x86/mm: Change _PAGE_DIRTY to _PAGE_DIRTY_HW Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 07/26] x86/mm: Remove _PAGE_DIRTY_HW from kernel RO pages Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 08/26] x86/mm: Introduce _PAGE_COW Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 09/26] drm/i915/gvt: Change _PAGE_DIRTY to _PAGE_DIRTY_BITS Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 10/26] x86/mm: Update pte_modify for _PAGE_COW Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 11/26] x86/mm: Update ptep_set_wrprotect() and pmdp_set_wrprotect() for transition from _PAGE_DIRTY_HW to _PAGE_COW Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 12/26] mm: Introduce VM_SHSTK for shadow stack memory Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 13/26] x86/mm: Shadow Stack page fault error checking Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 14/26] x86/mm: Update maybe_mkwrite() for shadow stack Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 15/26] mm: Fixup places that call pte_mkwrite() directly Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 16/26] mm: Add guard pages around a shadow stack Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 17/26] mm/mmap: Add shadow stack pages to memory accounting Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 18/26] mm: Update can_follow_write_pte() for shadow stack Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 19/26] x86/cet/shstk: User-mode shadow stack support Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 20/26] x86/cet/shstk: Handle signals for shadow stack Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 21/26] ELF: UAPI and Kconfig additions for ELF program properties Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 22/26] ELF: Add ELF program property parsing support Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 23/26] ELF: Introduce arch_setup_elf_property() Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 24/26] x86/cet/shstk: ELF header parsing for shadow stack Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 25/26] x86/cet/shstk: Handle thread " Yu-cheng Yu
2020-04-29 22:07 ` [PATCH v10 26/26] x86/cet/shstk: Add arch_prctl functions for " Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-21 22:42   ` Kees Cook
2020-05-22 17:17     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-22 17:29       ` Eugene Syromiatnikov
2020-05-22 18:13         ` Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-21 15:15 ` [PATCH v10 00/26] Control-flow Enforcement: Shadow Stack Josh Poimboeuf
2020-05-21 15:57   ` Yu-cheng Yu
2020-05-21 18:50     ` Josh Poimboeuf
2020-05-21 19:08       ` Yu-cheng Yu

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=32235ffc-6e6c-fb3d-80c4-a0478e2d0e0f@intel.com \
    --to=dave.hansen@intel.com \
    --cc=Dave.Martin@arm.com \
    --cc=arnd@arndb.de \
    --cc=bp@alien8.de \
    --cc=bsingharora@gmail.com \
    --cc=corbet@lwn.net \
    --cc=dave.hansen@linux.intel.com \
    --cc=esyr@redhat.com \
    --cc=fweimer@redhat.com \
    --cc=gorcunov@gmail.com \
    --cc=hjl.tools@gmail.com \
    --cc=hpa@zytor.com \
    --cc=jannh@google.com \
    --cc=keescook@chromium.org \
    --cc=linux-api@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-arch@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-doc@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-mm@kvack.org \
    --cc=luto@kernel.org \
    --cc=mike.kravetz@oracle.com \
    --cc=mingo@redhat.com \
    --cc=nadav.amit@gmail.com \
    --cc=oleg@redhat.com \
    --cc=pavel@ucw.cz \
    --cc=peterz@infradead.org \
    --cc=ravi.v.shankar@intel.com \
    --cc=rdunlap@infradead.org \
    --cc=tglx@linutronix.de \
    --cc=vedvyas.shanbhogue@intel.com \
    --cc=weijiang.yang@intel.com \
    --cc=x86@kernel.org \
    --cc=yu-cheng.yu@intel.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link

Linux-api Archive on lore.kernel.org

Archives are clonable:
	git clone --mirror https://lore.kernel.org/linux-api/0 linux-api/git/0.git

	# If you have public-inbox 1.1+ installed, you may
	# initialize and index your mirror using the following commands:
	public-inbox-init -V2 linux-api linux-api/ https://lore.kernel.org/linux-api \
		linux-api@vger.kernel.org
	public-inbox-index linux-api

Example config snippet for mirrors

Newsgroup available over NNTP:
	nntp://nntp.lore.kernel.org/org.kernel.vger.linux-api


AGPL code for this site: git clone https://public-inbox.org/public-inbox.git