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From: James Bottomley <jejb@linux.ibm.com>
To: Mike Rapoport <rppt@kernel.org>, David Hildenbrand <david@redhat.com>
Cc: Michal Hocko <mhocko@suse.com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	Alexander Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>,
	Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>, Arnd Bergmann <arnd@arndb.de>,
	Borislav Petkov <bp@alien8.de>,
	Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@arm.com>,
	Christopher Lameter <cl@linux.com>,
	Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>,
	Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@linux.intel.com>,
	Elena Reshetova <elena.reshetova@intel.com>,
	"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@redhat.com>,
	"Kirill A. Shutemov" <kirill@shutemov.name>,
	Matthew Wilcox <willy@infradead.org>,
	Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@arm.com>,
	Mike Rapoport <rppt@linux.ibm.com>,
	Michael Kerrisk <mtk.manpages@gmail.com>,
	Palmer Dabbelt <palmer@dabbelt.com>,
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	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
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	Roman Gushchin <guro@fb.com>, Shakeel Butt <shakeelb@google.com>,
	Shuah Khan <shuah@kernel.org>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
	Tycho Andersen <tycho@tycho.ws>, Will Deacon <will@kernel.org>,
	linux-api@vger.kernel.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org,
	linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kselftest@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-nvdimm@lists.01.org, linux-riscv@lists.infradead.org,
	x86@kernel.org, Hagen Paul Pfeifer <hagen@jauu.net>,
	Palmer Dabbelt <palmerdabbelt@google.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v16 07/11] secretmem: use PMD-size pages to amortize direct map fragmentation
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2021 10:55:40 -0800
Message-ID: <f26a17366194880d58e67d10cb5d7d7fdf2f3c19.camel@linux.ibm.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20210202181546.GO242749@kernel.org>

On Tue, 2021-02-02 at 20:15 +0200, Mike Rapoport wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 02, 2021 at 03:34:29PM +0100, David Hildenbrand wrote:
> > On 02.02.21 15:32, Michal Hocko wrote:
> > > On Tue 02-02-21 15:26:20, David Hildenbrand wrote:
> > > > On 02.02.21 15:22, Michal Hocko wrote:
> > > > > On Tue 02-02-21 15:12:21, David Hildenbrand wrote:
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > > I think secretmem behaves much more like longterm GUP right
> > > > > > now
> > > > > > ("unmigratable", "lifetime controlled by user space",
> > > > > > "cannot go on
> > > > > > CMA/ZONE_MOVABLE"). I'd either want to reasonably well
> > > > > > control/limit it or
> > > > > > make it behave more like mlocked pages.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I thought I have already asked but I must have forgotten. Is
> > > > > there any
> > > > > actual reason why the memory is not movable? Timing attacks?
> > > > 
> > > > I think the reason is simple: no direct map, no copying of
> > > > memory.
> > > 
> > > This is an implementation detail though and not something
> > > terribly hard
> > > to add on top later on. I was more worried there would be really
> > > fundamental reason why this is not possible. E.g. security
> > > implications.
> > 
> > I don't remember all the details. Let's see what Mike thinks
> > regarding
> > migration (e.g., security concerns).
> 
> Thanks for considering me a security expert :-)
> 
> Yet, I cannot estimate how dangerous is the temporal exposure of
> this data to the kernel via the direct map in the simple
> map/copy/unmap
> sequence.

Well the safest security statement is that we never expose the data to
the kernel because it's a very clean security statement and easy to
enforce.  It's also the easiest threat model to analyse.   Once we do
start exposing the secret to the kernel it alters the threat profile
and the analysis and obviously potentially provides the ROP gadget to
an attacker to do the same.  Instinct tells me that the loss of
security doesn't really make up for the ability to swap or migrate but
if there were a case for doing the latter, it would have to be a
security policy of the user (i.e. a user should be able to decide their
data is too sensitive to expose to the kernel).

> More secure way would be to map source and destination in a different
> page table rather than in the direct map, similarly to the way
> text_poke() on x86 does.

I think doing this would have much less of an impact on the security
posture because it's already theoretically possible to have kmap
restore access to the kernel.

James


> I've left the migration callback empty for now because it can be
> added on top and its implementation would depend on the way we do (or
> do not do) pooling.
> 



  reply index

Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-01-21 12:27 [PATCH v16 00/11] mm: introduce memfd_secret system call to create "secret" memory areas Mike Rapoport
2021-01-21 12:27 ` [PATCH v16 01/11] mm: add definition of PMD_PAGE_ORDER Mike Rapoport
2021-01-21 12:27 ` [PATCH v16 02/11] mmap: make mlock_future_check() global Mike Rapoport
2021-01-21 12:27 ` [PATCH v16 03/11] riscv/Kconfig: make direct map manipulation options depend on MMU Mike Rapoport
2021-01-21 12:27 ` [PATCH v16 04/11] set_memory: allow set_direct_map_*_noflush() for multiple pages Mike Rapoport
2021-01-21 12:27 ` [PATCH v16 05/11] set_memory: allow querying whether set_direct_map_*() is actually enabled Mike Rapoport
2021-01-21 12:27 ` [PATCH v16 06/11] mm: introduce memfd_secret system call to create "secret" memory areas Mike Rapoport
2021-01-25 17:01   ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-25 21:36     ` Mike Rapoport
2021-01-26  7:16       ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-26  8:33         ` Mike Rapoport
2021-01-26  9:00           ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-26  9:20             ` Mike Rapoport
2021-01-26  9:49               ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-26  9:53                 ` David Hildenbrand
2021-01-26 10:19                   ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-26  9:20             ` Michal Hocko
2021-02-03 12:15   ` Michal Hocko
2021-02-04 11:34     ` Mike Rapoport
2021-01-21 12:27 ` [PATCH v16 07/11] secretmem: use PMD-size pages to amortize direct map fragmentation Mike Rapoport
2021-01-26 11:46   ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-26 11:56     ` David Hildenbrand
2021-01-26 12:08       ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-28  9:22         ` Mike Rapoport
2021-01-28 13:01           ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-28 13:28             ` Christoph Lameter
2021-01-28 13:49               ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-28 15:56                 ` Christoph Lameter
2021-01-28 16:23                   ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-28 15:28             ` James Bottomley
2021-01-29  7:03               ` Mike Rapoport
2021-01-28 21:05             ` James Bottomley
     [not found]               ` <YBPF8ETGBHUzxaZR@dhcp22.suse.cz>
2021-02-01 16:56                 ` James Bottomley
2021-02-02  9:35                   ` Michal Hocko
2021-02-02 12:48                     ` Mike Rapoport
2021-02-02 13:14                       ` David Hildenbrand
2021-02-02 13:32                         ` Michal Hocko
2021-02-02 14:12                           ` David Hildenbrand
2021-02-02 14:22                             ` Michal Hocko
2021-02-02 14:26                               ` David Hildenbrand
2021-02-02 14:32                                 ` Michal Hocko
2021-02-02 14:34                                   ` David Hildenbrand
2021-02-02 18:15                                     ` Mike Rapoport
2021-02-02 18:55                                       ` James Bottomley [this message]
2021-02-03 12:09                                         ` Michal Hocko
2021-02-04 11:31                                           ` Mike Rapoport
2021-02-02 13:27                       ` Michal Hocko
2021-02-02 19:10                         ` Mike Rapoport
2021-02-03  9:12                           ` Michal Hocko
2021-02-04  9:58                             ` Mike Rapoport
2021-02-04 13:02                               ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-29  7:21             ` Mike Rapoport
2021-01-29  8:51               ` Michal Hocko
2021-02-02 14:42                 ` David Hildenbrand
2021-01-21 12:27 ` [PATCH v16 08/11] secretmem: add memcg accounting Mike Rapoport
2021-01-25 16:17   ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-01-25 17:18     ` Shakeel Butt
2021-01-25 21:35       ` Mike Rapoport
2021-01-28 15:07         ` Shakeel Butt
2021-01-25 16:54   ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-25 21:38     ` Mike Rapoport
2021-01-26  7:31       ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-26  8:56         ` Mike Rapoport
2021-01-26  9:15           ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-26 14:48       ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-01-26 15:05         ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-27 18:42           ` Roman Gushchin
2021-01-28  7:58             ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-28 14:05               ` Shakeel Butt
2021-01-28 14:22                 ` Michal Hocko
2021-01-28 14:57                   ` Shakeel Butt
2021-01-21 12:27 ` [PATCH v16 09/11] PM: hibernate: disable when there are active secretmem users Mike Rapoport
2021-01-21 12:27 ` [PATCH v16 10/11] arch, mm: wire up memfd_secret system call where relevant Mike Rapoport
2021-01-25 18:18   ` Catalin Marinas
2021-01-21 12:27 ` [PATCH v16 11/11] secretmem: test: add basic selftest for memfd_secret(2) Mike Rapoport
2021-01-21 22:18 ` [PATCH v16 00/11] mm: introduce memfd_secret system call to create "secret" memory areas Andrew Morton

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