From: Damien Le Moal <Damien.LeMoal@wdc.com>
To: Bart Van Assche <firstname.lastname@example.org>,
Matthew Wilcox <email@example.com>
Cc: Ric Wheeler <firstname.lastname@example.org>,
Linux FS Devel <email@example.com>,
Subject: Re: [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] durability vs performance for flash devices (especially embedded!)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 00:16:42 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <DM6PR04MB7081477ECBE0BB4EC27D2C90E7359@DM6PR04MB7081.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> (raw)
On 2021/06/10 3:47, Bart Van Assche wrote:
> On 6/9/21 11:30 AM, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
>> maybe you should read the paper.
>> " Thiscomparison demonstrates that using F2FS, a flash-friendly file
>> sys-tem, does not mitigate the wear-out problem, except inasmuch asit
>> inadvertently rate limitsallI/O to the device"
> It seems like my email was not clear enough? What I tried to make clear
> is that I think that there is no way to solve the flash wear issue with
> the traditional block interface. I think that F2FS in combination with
> the zone interface is an effective solution.
> What is also relevant in this context is that the "Flash drive lifespan
> is a problem" paper was published in 2017. I think that the first
> commercial SSDs with a zone interface became available at a later time
> (summer of 2020?).
Yes, zone support in the block layer and f2fs was added with kernel 4.10
released in Feb 2017. So the authors likely did not consider that as a solution,
especially considering that at the time, it was all about SMR HDDs only. Now, we
do have ZNS and things like SD-Express coming which may allow NVMe/ZNS on even
the cheapest of consumer devices.
That said, I do not think that f2fs is not yet an ideal solution as is since all
its metadata need update in-place, so are subject to the drive implementation of
FTL/weir leveling. And the quality of this varies between devices and vendors...
btrfs zone support improves that as even the super blocks are not updated in
place on zoned devices. Everything is copy-on-write, sequential write into
zones. While the current block allocator is rather simple for now, it could be
tweaked to add some weir leveling awareness, eventually (per zone weir leveling
is something much easier to do inside the drive though, so the host should not
In the context of zoned storage, the discussion could be around how to best
support file systems. Do we keep modifying one file system after another to
support zones, or implement weir leveling ? That is *very* hard to do and
sometimes not reasonably feasible depending on the FS design.
I do remember Dave Chinner talk back in 2018 LSF/MM (was it ?) where he
discussed the idea of having block allocation moved out of FSes and turned into
a kind of library common to many file systems. In the context of consumer flash
weir leveling, and eventually zones (likely with some remapping needed), this
may be something interesting to discuss again.
Damien Le Moal
Western Digital Research
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-06-10 0:16 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 14+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-06-09 10:53 [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] durability vs performance for flash devices (especially embedded!) Ric Wheeler
2021-06-09 18:05 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-06-09 18:30 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-06-09 18:47 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-06-10 0:16 ` Damien Le Moal [this message]
2021-06-10 1:11 ` Ric Wheeler
2021-06-10 1:20 ` Ric Wheeler
2021-06-10 11:07 ` Tim Walker
2021-06-10 16:38 ` Keith Busch
[not found] ` <CAOtxgyeRf=+grEoHxVLEaSM=Yfx4KrSG5q96SmztpoWfP=QrDg@mail.gmail.com>
2021-06-10 16:22 ` Ric Wheeler
2021-06-10 17:06 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-06-10 17:25 ` Ric Wheeler
2021-06-10 17:57 ` Viacheslav Dubeyko
2021-06-13 20:41 ` [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] SSDFS: LFS file system without GC operations + NAND flash devices lifetime prolongation Viacheslav Dubeyko
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