From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.3 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,NICE_REPLY_A,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA85C48BCF for ; Wed, 9 Jun 2021 18:47:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BC6613F1 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 2021 18:47:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S230199AbhFISt3 (ORCPT ); Wed, 9 Jun 2021 14:49:29 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f174.google.com ([209.85.215.174]:39623 "EHLO mail-pg1-f174.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S229705AbhFISt3 (ORCPT ); Wed, 9 Jun 2021 14:49:29 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f174.google.com with SMTP id y12so8484608pgk.6; Wed, 09 Jun 2021 11:47:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ru/2yHtNbddQUQYL2d7H9005njvNb+FjQOidp6228TU=; b=CB3X3RpWGBIY1JN0nAgCk6OeeBfack1A/4u3e0X2mhQb/5jq8MrFlcMMv/Mkje+NkK GLAN7ULmgwPUvh7TLb5NqIHW5aHbuwQ5pFQ2S6dYwztQqvEcMpv1QH9E0pxLyUArS9bg VwsFk2ek/7DTSphSLJGsZI/pTP6G0+WNUwSPenDeXJMOxksnyhxUnY/EGsvrcAS1mioO KDlU2lL3zHr+jvSpHGAmmc2I5vbz7I3DcBwEvTSHtSAhS/bdcjTpBlAbQQuSUOaLDeMd JSPm1EAwVG/ZHuxIo4r1n7e4Fu2MN5iVBJ9sMNCKo7isWAZJB+SKOlyVFpawUnoVGLR7 ct1A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531tSXLzfhVeKhuxDHw/WRS8nQq/io/mY844jy722+KcDIYDx0fX WCO0gJKkPTMnfokgdwTMjuWcE2MbMiI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxiAC1yLkCA/hTG9C47iZ22JnDtUUMamj8n6doG+3jjOYjcpWDqeD3b+b13967xvN4s4YYedw== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8159:0:b029:2c5:dfd8:3ac4 with SMTP id d25-20020aa781590000b02902c5dfd83ac4mr1186986pfn.16.1623264442491; Wed, 09 Jun 2021 11:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.3.217] (c-73-241-217-19.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.241.217.19]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s22sm262945pfe.208.2021.06.09.11.47.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Jun 2021 11:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] durability vs performance for flash devices (especially embedded!) To: Matthew Wilcox Cc: Ric Wheeler , lsf-pc@lists.linux-foundation.org, Linux FS Devel , linux-block@vger.kernel.org References: <55d3434d-6837-3a56-32b7-7354e73eb258@gmail.com> <0e1ed05f-4e83-7c84-dee6-ac0160be8f5c@acm.org> From: Bart Van Assche Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 11:47:20 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-block@vger.kernel.org On 6/9/21 11:30 AM, Matthew Wilcox wrote: > maybe you should read the paper. > > " Thiscomparison demonstrates that using F2FS, a flash-friendly file > sys-tem, does not mitigate the wear-out problem, except inasmuch asit > inadvertently rate limitsallI/O to the device" It seems like my email was not clear enough? What I tried to make clear is that I think that there is no way to solve the flash wear issue with the traditional block interface. I think that F2FS in combination with the zone interface is an effective solution. What is also relevant in this context is that the "Flash drive lifespan is a problem" paper was published in 2017. I think that the first commercial SSDs with a zone interface became available at a later time (summer of 2020?). Bart.