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From: General Zed <general-zed@zedlx.com>
To: Zygo Blaxell <ce3g8jdj@umail.furryterror.org>
Cc: Chris Murphy <lists@colorremedies.com>,
	"Austin S. Hemmelgarn" <ahferroin7@gmail.com>,
	Btrfs BTRFS <linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Feature requests: online backup - defrag - change RAID level
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 13:02:36 -0400
Message-ID: <20190913130236.Horde.J6Skdjml2LO57Kn1UxWdtaA@server53.web-hosting.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20190913052520.Horde.TXpSDI4drVhkIzGxF7ZVMA8@server53.web-hosting.com>


Quoting General Zed <general-zed@zedlx.com>:

> Quoting General Zed <general-zed@zedlx.com>:
>
>> Quoting Zygo Blaxell <ce3g8jdj@umail.furryterror.org>:
>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 08:26:04PM -0400, General Zed wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Quoting Zygo Blaxell <ce3g8jdj@umail.furryterror.org>:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 06:57:26PM -0400, General Zed wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At worst, it just has to completely write-out "all metadata",  
>>>>>> all the way up
>>>>>> to the super. It needs to be done just once, because what's the point of
>>>>>> writing it 10 times over? Then, the super is updated as the  
>>>>>> final commit.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is kind of a silly discussion.  The biggest extent possible on
>>>>> btrfs is 128MB, and the incremental gains of forcing 128MB extents to
>>>>> be consecutive are negligible.  If you're defragging a 10GB file, you're
>>>>> just going to end up doing 80 separate defrag operations.
>>>>
>>>> Ok, then the max extent is 128 MB, that's fine. Someone here  
>>>> previously said
>>>> that it is 2 GB, so he has disinformed me (in order to further his false
>>>> argument).
>>>
>>> If the 128MB limit is removed, you then hit the block group size limit,
>>> which is some number of GB from 1 to 10 depending on number of disks
>>> available and raid profile selection (the striping raid profiles cap
>>> block group sizes at 10 disks, and single/raid1 profiles always use 1GB
>>> block groups regardless of disk count).  So 2GB is _also_ a valid extent
>>> size limit, just not the first limit that is relevant for defrag.
>>>
>>> A lot of people get confused by 'filefrag -v' output, which coalesces
>>> physically adjacent but distinct extents.  So if you use that tool,
>>> it can _seem_ like there is a 2.5GB extent in a file, but it is really
>>> 20 distinct 128MB extents that start and end at adjacent addresses.
>>> You can see the true structure in 'btrfs ins dump-tree' output.
>>>
>>> That also brings up another reason why 10GB defrags are absurd on btrfs:
>>> extent addresses are virtual.  There's no guarantee that a pair of extents
>>> that meet at a block group boundary are physically adjacent, and after
>>> operations like RAID array reorganization or free space defragmentation,
>>> they are typically quite far apart physically.
>>>
>>>> I didn't ever said that I would force extents larger than 128 MB.
>>>>
>>>> If you are defragging a 10 GB file, you'll likely have to do it  
>>>> in 10 steps,
>>>> because the defrag is usually allowed to only use a limited amount of disk
>>>> space while in operation. That has nothing to do with the extent size.
>>>
>>> Defrag is literally manipulating the extent size.  Fragments and extents
>>> are the same thing in btrfs.
>>>
>>> Currently a 10GB defragment will work in 80 steps, but doesn't necessarily
>>> commit metadata updates after each step, so more than 128MB of temporary
>>> space may be used (especially if your disks are fast and empty,
>>> and you start just after the end of the previous commit interval).
>>> There are some opportunities to coalsce metadata updates, occupying up
>>> to a (arbitrary) limit of 512MB of RAM (or when memory pressure forces
>>> a flush, whichever comes first), but exploiting those opportunities
>>> requires more space for uncommitted data.
>>>
>>> If the filesystem starts to get low on space during a defrag, it can
>>> inject commits to force metadata updates to happen more often, which
>>> reduces the amount of temporary space needed (we can't delete the original
>>> fragmented extents until their replacement extent is committed); however,
>>> if the filesystem is so low on space that you're worried about running
>>> out during a defrag, then you probably don't have big enough contiguous
>>> free areas to relocate data into anyway, i.e. the defrag is just going to
>>> push data from one fragmented location to a different fragmented location,
>>> or bail out with "sorry, can't defrag that."
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>> Each defrag "cycle" consists of two parts:
>>     1) move-out part
>>     2) move-in part
>>
>> The move-out part select one contiguous area of the disk. Almost  
>> any area will do, but some smart choices are better. It then  
>> moves-out all data from that contiguous area into whatever holes  
>> there are left empty on the disk. The biggest problem is actually  
>> updating the metadata, since the updates are not localized.
>> Anyway, this part can even be skipped.
>>
>> The move-in part now populates the completely free contiguous area  
>> with defragmented data.
>>
>> In the case that the move-out part needs to be skipped because the  
>> defrag estimates that the update to metatada will be too big (like  
>> in the pathological case of a disk with 156 GB of metadata), it can  
>> sucessfully defrag by performing only the move-in part. In that  
>> case, the move-in area is not free of data and "defragmented" data  
>> won't be fully defragmented. Also, there should be at least 20%  
>> free disk space in this case in order to avoid defrag turning  
>> pathological.
>>
>> But, these are all some pathological cases. They should be  
>> considered in some other discussion.
>
> I know how to do this pathological case. Figured it out!
>
> Yeah, always ask General Zed, he knows the best!!!
>
> The move-in phase is not a problem, because this phase generally  
> affects a low number of files.
>
> So, let's consider the move-out phase. The main concern here is that  
> the move-out area may contain so many different files and fragments  
> that the move-out forces a practically undoable metadata update.
>
> So, the way to do it is to select files for move-out, one by one (or  
> even more granular, by fragments of files), while keeping track of  
> the size of the necessary metadata update. When the metadata update  
> exceeds a certain amount (let's say 128 MB, an amount that can  
> easily fit into RAM), the move-out is performed with only currently  
> selected files (file fragments). (The move-out often doesn't affect  
> a whole file since only a part of each file lies within the move-out  
> area).
>
> Now the defrag has to decide: whether to continue with another round  
> of the move-out to get a cleaner move-in area (by repeating the same  
> procedure above), or should it continue with a move-in into a  
> partialy dirty area. I can't tell you what's better right now, as  
> this can be determined only by experiments.
>
> Lastly, the move-in phase is performed (can be done whether the  
> move-in area is dirty or completely clean). Again, the same trick  
> can be used: files can be selected one by one until the calculated  
> metadata update exceeds 128 MB. However, it is more likely that the  
> size of move-in area will be exhausted before this happens.
>
> This algorithm will work even if you have only 3% free disk space left.
>
> This algorithm will also work if you have metadata of huge size, but  
> in that case it is better to have much more free disk space (20%) to  
> avoid significantly slowing down the defrag operation.

I have just thought out an even better algorithm than this which gets  
to fully-defragged state faster, in a smaller number of disk writes.  
But I won't write it down unless someone says thanks for your effort  
so far, General Zed, and can you please tell us about your great new  
defrag algorithm for low free-space conditions.



  reply index

Thread overview: 111+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-09-09  2:55 zedlryqc
2019-09-09  3:51 ` Qu Wenruo
2019-09-09 11:25   ` zedlryqc
2019-09-09 12:18     ` Qu Wenruo
2019-09-09 12:28       ` Qu Wenruo
2019-09-09 17:11         ` webmaster
2019-09-10 17:39           ` Andrei Borzenkov
2019-09-10 22:41             ` webmaster
2019-09-09 15:29       ` Graham Cobb
2019-09-09 17:24         ` Remi Gauvin
2019-09-09 19:26         ` webmaster
2019-09-10 19:22           ` Austin S. Hemmelgarn
2019-09-10 23:32             ` webmaster
2019-09-11 12:02               ` Austin S. Hemmelgarn
2019-09-11 16:26                 ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-11 17:20                 ` webmaster
2019-09-11 18:19                   ` Austin S. Hemmelgarn
2019-09-11 20:01                     ` webmaster
2019-09-11 21:42                       ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-13  1:33                         ` General Zed
2019-09-11 21:37                     ` webmaster
2019-09-12 11:31                       ` Austin S. Hemmelgarn
2019-09-12 19:18                         ` webmaster
2019-09-12 19:44                           ` Chris Murphy
2019-09-12 21:34                             ` General Zed
2019-09-12 22:28                               ` Chris Murphy
2019-09-12 22:57                                 ` General Zed
2019-09-12 23:54                                   ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-13  0:26                                     ` General Zed
2019-09-13  3:12                                       ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-13  5:05                                         ` General Zed
2019-09-14  0:56                                           ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-14  1:50                                             ` General Zed
2019-09-14  4:42                                               ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-14  4:53                                                 ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-15 17:54                                                 ` General Zed
2019-09-16 22:51                                                   ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-17  1:03                                                     ` General Zed
2019-09-17  1:34                                                       ` General Zed
2019-09-17  1:44                                                       ` Chris Murphy
2019-09-17  4:55                                                         ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-17  4:19                                                       ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-17  3:10                                                     ` General Zed
2019-09-17  4:05                                                       ` General Zed
2019-09-14  1:56                                             ` General Zed
2019-09-13  5:22                                         ` General Zed
2019-09-13  6:16                                         ` General Zed
2019-09-13  6:58                                         ` General Zed
2019-09-13  9:25                                           ` General Zed
2019-09-13 17:02                                             ` General Zed [this message]
2019-09-14  0:59                                             ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-14  1:28                                               ` General Zed
2019-09-14  4:28                                                 ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-15 18:05                                                   ` General Zed
2019-09-16 23:05                                                     ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-13  7:51                                         ` General Zed
2019-09-13 11:04                                     ` Austin S. Hemmelgarn
2019-09-13 20:43                                       ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-14  0:20                                         ` General Zed
2019-09-14 18:29                                       ` Chris Murphy
2019-09-14 23:39                                         ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-13 11:09                                   ` Austin S. Hemmelgarn
2019-09-13 17:20                                     ` General Zed
2019-09-13 18:20                                       ` General Zed
2019-09-12 19:54                           ` Austin S. Hemmelgarn
2019-09-12 22:21                             ` General Zed
2019-09-13 11:53                               ` Austin S. Hemmelgarn
2019-09-13 16:54                                 ` General Zed
2019-09-13 18:29                                   ` Austin S. Hemmelgarn
2019-09-13 19:40                                     ` General Zed
2019-09-14 15:10                                       ` Jukka Larja
2019-09-12 22:47                             ` General Zed
2019-09-11 21:37                   ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-11 23:21                     ` webmaster
2019-09-12  0:10                       ` Remi Gauvin
2019-09-12  3:05                         ` webmaster
2019-09-12  3:30                           ` Remi Gauvin
2019-09-12  3:33                             ` Remi Gauvin
2019-09-12  5:19                       ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-12 21:23                         ` General Zed
2019-09-14  4:12                           ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-16 11:42                             ` General Zed
2019-09-17  0:49                               ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-17  2:30                                 ` General Zed
2019-09-17  5:30                                   ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-17 10:07                                     ` General Zed
2019-09-17 23:40                                       ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-18  4:37                                         ` General Zed
2019-09-18 18:00                                           ` Zygo Blaxell
2019-09-10 23:58             ` webmaster
2019-09-09 23:24         ` Qu Wenruo
2019-09-09 23:25         ` webmaster
2019-09-09 16:38       ` webmaster
2019-09-09 23:44         ` Qu Wenruo
2019-09-10  0:00           ` Chris Murphy
2019-09-10  0:51             ` Qu Wenruo
2019-09-10  0:06           ` webmaster
2019-09-10  0:48             ` Qu Wenruo
2019-09-10  1:24               ` webmaster
2019-09-10  1:48                 ` Qu Wenruo
2019-09-10  3:32                   ` webmaster
2019-09-10 14:14                     ` Nikolay Borisov
2019-09-10 22:35                       ` webmaster
2019-09-11  6:40                         ` Nikolay Borisov
2019-09-10 22:48                     ` webmaster
2019-09-10 23:14                   ` webmaster
2019-09-11  0:26               ` webmaster
2019-09-11  0:36                 ` webmaster
2019-09-11  1:00                 ` webmaster
2019-09-10 11:12     ` Austin S. Hemmelgarn
2019-09-09  3:12 webmaster

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