From: Edward Shishkin <edward@redhat.com>
To: Chris Mason <chris.mason@oracle.com>,
Edward Shishkin <edward@redhat.com>,
Jamie Lokier <jamie@shareable.org>,
Edward Shishkin <edward.shishkin@gmail.com>,
Mat <jackdachef@gmail.com>
Subject: Balancing leaves when walking from top to down (was Btrfs:...)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 00:04:06 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <4C1BED56.9010300__45299.0455706187$1276898741$gmane$org@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20100618193555.GV27466@think>
Chris Mason wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 09:29:40PM +0200, Edward Shishkin wrote:
>
>> Jamie Lokier wrote:
>>
>>> Edward Shishkin wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you decide to base your file system on some algorithms then please
>>>> use the original ones from proper academic papers. DO NOT modify the
>>>> algorithms in solitude: this is very fragile thing! All such
>>>> modifications must be reviewed by specialists in the theory of
>>>> algorithms. Such review can be done in various scientific magazines of
>>>> proper level.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I don't see any way to improve the situation with Btrfs
>>>> except full redesigning the last one. If you want to base your file
>>>> system on the paper of Ohad Rodeh, then please, use *exactly* the
>>>> Bayer's B-trees that he refers to. That said, make sure that all
>>>> records you put to the tree has equal length and all non-root nodes of
>>>> your tree are at least half filled.
>>>>
>>> First, thanks Edward for identifying a specific problem with the
>>> current btrfs implementation.
>>>
>> Hello Jamie.
>>
>>
>>> I've studied modified B-trees quite a lot and know enough to be sure
>>> that they are quite robust when you modify them in all sorts of ways.
>>>
>> Which property is robust?
>>
>>
>>> Moreover, you are incorrect to say there's an intrinsic algorithmic
>>> problem with variable-length records. It is not true; if Knuth said
>>> so, Knuth was mistaken.
>>>
>> I didn't say about intrinsic algorithmic problems :)
>> I just repeat (after Knuth et al) that B-trees with variable-length
>> records don't
>> have any sane boundary for internal fragmentation. The common idea
>> is that if we
>> don't want Btrfs to be in infinite development stage, then we should
>> choose some
>> *sane* strategy (for example the paper of Ohad Rodeh) and strictly
>> adhere this in
>> future.
>>
>
> Again, other than the inline file data, what exactly do you believe
> needs to change?
1. getting rid of inline extents;
2. new formats for directory and xattr items to not look like a train,
which is able to occupy the whole leaf;
3. make sure we do pro-active balancing like it is described in the paper.
Sorry, I don't see other ways for now..
> Top down balancing vs balancing on insertion doesn't
> impact our ability to maintain full leaves. The current code is clearly
> choosing not to merge two leaves that it should have merged, which is
> just a plain old bug.
>
How are you going to balance leaves when walking from top to down?
Suppose 1) and 2) above are not satisfied and having arrived to the leaf
level we see a number of items of variable length. What will we do to
keep leaves full?
Could you please provide a sketch of the algorithm?
Thanks!
--
Edward O. Shishkin
Principal Software Engineer
Red Hat Czech
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2010-06-18 22:04 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 41+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2010-06-03 14:58 Unbound(?) internal fragmentation in Btrfs Edward Shishkin
[not found] ` <AANLkTilKw2onQkdNlZjg7WVnPu2dsNpDSvoxrO_FA2z_@mail.gmail.com>
2010-06-18 8:03 ` Christian Stroetmann
2010-06-18 13:32 ` Btrfs: broken file system design (was Unbound(?) internal fragmentation in Btrfs) Edward Shishkin
2010-06-18 13:45 ` Daniel J Blueman
2010-06-18 16:50 ` Edward Shishkin
2010-06-23 23:40 ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-24 3:43 ` Daniel Taylor
2010-06-24 4:51 ` Mike Fedyk
2010-06-24 22:06 ` Daniel Taylor
2010-06-25 9:15 ` Btrfs: broken file system design Andi Kleen
2010-06-25 18:58 ` Btrfs: broken file system design (was Unbound(?) internal fragmentation in Btrfs) Ric Wheeler
2010-06-26 5:18 ` Michael Tokarev
2010-06-26 11:55 ` Ric Wheeler
[not found] ` <57784.2001:5c0:82dc::2.1277555665.squirrel@www.tofubar.com>
2010-06-26 13:47 ` Ric Wheeler
2010-06-24 9:50 ` David Woodhouse
2010-06-18 18:15 ` Christian Stroetmann
2010-06-18 13:47 ` Chris Mason
2010-06-18 15:05 ` Edward Shishkin
[not found] ` <4C1B8B4A.9060308@gmail.com>
2010-06-18 15:10 ` Chris Mason
2010-06-18 16:22 ` Edward Shishkin
[not found] ` <4C1B9D4F.6010008@gmail.com>
2010-06-18 18:10 ` Chris Mason
2010-06-18 15:21 ` Christian Stroetmann
2010-06-18 15:22 ` Chris Mason
2010-06-18 15:56 ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-18 19:25 ` Christian Stroetmann
2010-06-18 19:29 ` Edward Shishkin
2010-06-18 19:35 ` Chris Mason
2010-06-18 22:04 ` Edward Shishkin [this message]
[not found] ` <4C1BED56.9010300@redhat.com>
2010-06-18 22:16 ` Balancing leaves when walking from top to down (was Btrfs:...) Ric Wheeler
2010-06-19 0:03 ` Edward Shishkin
2010-06-21 13:15 ` Chris Mason
[not found] ` <20100621180013.GD17979@think>
2010-06-22 14:12 ` Edward Shishkin
2010-06-22 14:20 ` Chris Mason
2010-06-23 13:46 ` Edward Shishkin
[not found] ` <4C221049.501@gmail.com>
2010-06-23 23:37 ` Jamie Lokier
2010-06-24 13:06 ` Chris Mason
2010-06-30 20:05 ` Edward Shishkin
[not found] ` <4C2BA381.7040808@redhat.com>
2010-06-30 21:12 ` Chris Mason
2010-07-09 4:16 ` Chris Samuel
2010-07-09 20:30 ` Chris Mason
2010-06-23 23:57 ` Btrfs: broken file system design (was Unbound(?) internal fragmentation in Btrfs) Jamie Lokier
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