From: Oliver Hartkopp <socketcan@hartkopp.net>
To: Vincent MAILHOL <mailhol.vincent@wanadoo.fr>
Cc: "Marc Kleine-Budde" <mkl@pengutronix.de>,
linux-can@vger.kernel.org, kernel@pengutronix.de,
"Stéphane Grosjean" <s.grosjean@peak-system.com>
Subject: Re: [net-rfc 04/16] can: dev: can_get_len(): add a helper function to get the correct length of Classical frames
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 09:15:19 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <0087f8a4-c77c-cc13-b17d-bd9666837ee3@hartkopp.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAMZ6RqJ8=T8CAhYaa8PZs5-d2zhx1_15wMe7ohUZovvqTcgW0w@mail.gmail.com>
On 22.10.20 05:30, Vincent MAILHOL wrote:
> On 21.10.21 02:52, Oliver Hartkopp wrote:
>> On 21.10.20 13:55, Vincent MAILHOL wrote:
>>>> On 21.10.20 18:48, Oliver Hartkopp wrote:
>>
>>>> To be more compatible to non raw dlc CAN frame sources the tx handling
>>>> could also be like this:
>>>>
>>>> if ((can_dlc == CAN_MAX_DLEN) &&
>>>> (raw_dlc >= CAN_MAX_DLC && raw_dlc <= CAN_MAX_RAW_DLC))
>>>> => use raw_dlc
>>>>
>
> In addition to that, we would have to decide what to do with malformed
> frames. If can_dlc and can_raw are set to contradictory values, do we
> drop the frame, do we just ignore the raw_dlc? For example, if can_dlc
> is 8 but raw_dlc is 2, I think that we should drop.
The pseudo code is pretty clear on this: Use can_dlc.
The nice thing about testing raw_dlc to be 9..15 when can_dlc == 8 is,
that we always have a correct CAN frame on the wire with 8 bytes of content.
Ok, the raw_dlc might be an uninitialized value - but still everything
remains fine for operation. So why dropping frames here?
The problem of uninitialized values could be solved with a
CAN_RAW_RAW_DLC sockopt BUT you will be always able to send a CAN frame
with an AF_PACKET socket which has no CAN_RAW_RAW_DLC sockopt.
And then?
The above pseudo code together with CAN_CTRLMODE_RAW_DLC seems to be a
pretty safe option to me. Even if 'legacy' applications with
uninitialized raw_dlc send CAN frames or AF_PACKET users enable
CAN_CTRLMODE_RAW_DLC we always end up with a proper can_dlc == 8 and a
fitting valid raw_dlc.
>
> If we go this direction, I would propose below logic:
>
> 1. if raw_dlc equals can_dlc: nominal case.
Is not tested. We would start on testing can_dlc == 8
>
> 2. if can_dlc equals 8 and raw_dlc is greater than 8: use raw_dlc
> case, already covered in your code.
ACK
> 3. if raw_dlc is 0, then consider it as unset: overwrite raw_dlc with
> can_dlc (so that it becomes case 1).
Is not tested like this. We would start on can_dlc == 8 - and then check
for valid raw_dlc 9..15
>
> 4. Other scenarios: the frame is malformed: drop it.
No dropping.
> Logic should apply for both Tx and Rx paths.
So test for can_dlc == 8 - and then check for valid raw_dlc 9..15 in the
user space?! Fine.
Btw. we can make sure that we do not have uninitialized raw_dlc value in
the rx path in the enabled drivers. In fact you could always use the
raw_dlc then.
BUT it makes sense to use this test to detect cases, where someone
forgot to switch on CAN_CTRLMODE_RAW_DLC or the driver doesn't support
it and the programmer did not check the ctrlmode netlink return values.
> Then, the drivers/users would only have to manage scenarios 1 and 2
> (and 2 can be ignored if CAN_CTRLMODE_RAW_DLC is not advertised).
>
>>>
>>> If I understand well, the idea would be not to use a setsockopt() but
>>> instead rely on some logic on the can_dlc and raw_dlc to determine
>>> which one to use.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, this approach has one issue in the TX path that could
>>> break existing applications.
>>>
>>> Consider below code (which I think is fairly realistic):
>>>
>>> void send_frame (int soc, canid_t can_id, char *data, size_t len)
>>> {
>>> struct can_frame cf;
>>> size_t dlc = len > sizeof(cf.data) ? sizeof(cf.data) : len;
>>>
>>> cf.can_id = can_id;
>>> cf.can_dlc = dlc;
>>> memcpy(cf.data, data, dlc);
>>>
>>> write(soc, &cf, sizeof(cf));
>>> }
>>>
>>> Here, the user did not initialize the can frame (cf) but assigned all
>>> the relevant fields manually. Because cf is not initialized, the newly
>>> introduced cf.dlc_raw field would have any of the values which was
>>> present on the stack at the moment (rationale: the C standard does not
>>> guarantee zero initialization). If 9 <= raw_dlc <= 15, the can frame
>>> will be transmitted with a bad DLC value. If raw_dlc > 15, the can
>>> frame will be discarded.
>>
>> No, this is not what I wrote. With my suggestion you need to populate
>> both dlc elements to use the new "raw dlc" feature.
>>
>> if (can_dlc == 8) && (9 <= raw_dlc <= 15)
>> => put raw_dlc value into the controller register
>> else
>> => put can_dlc value into the controller register
>>
>> When you have a test system to make security tests and you enable
>> CAN_CTRLMODE_RAW_DLC on a specific CAN interface - which applications
>> would you run to send CAN frames on this interface?
>>
>> I assume only the test application which is really aware of setting
>> can_dlc and raw_dlc correctly.
>
> My point is that this assumption is dangerous.
>
> I do not think I made myself clear. I am speaking about old "non-DLC
> aware" code running in CAN_CTRLMODE_RAW_DLC context.
>
> Consider two applications: the first application is a test application
> which is "DLC aware", the second is a legacy application which
> contains the code which I presented in my previous message.
>
> A user who wants to run both in parallel sets CAN_CTRLMODE_RAW_DLC at
> netlink level. First application works fine, second application which
> contains the legacy code gets impacted as explained previously and
> stops behaving as intended.
>
> Newly introduced option should not break existing code regardless
> why. In opposition, we can introduce new rules if these are strictly
> tied to the new option.
Yes but it doesn't help you with AF_PACKET.
> In my mind, imposing a rule that old code should not be used in
> CAN_CTRLMODE_RAW_DLC context would create a huge pitfall and would
> violate the "don't break userland" principle.
CAN_RAW_RAW_DLC could help in the case of legacy code only when they are
using CAN_RAW sockets. But nothing more.
Therefore we need the robustness on driver level with the checking of
can_dlc == 8.
(..)
>>> For userland, I think that this is acceptable because the very instant
>>> the user calls setsockopt() with the CAN_RAW_RAW_DLC, he should be
>>> aware of the consequences and should resign to use can_dlc field as a
>>> plain length.
>>
>> Not filling can_dlc would cause tons of changes for sanity checks and
>> feature switches.
>
> I never spoke about "not filling can_dlc". My point is to not use it
> as a length but use it as a DLC according to ISO definition. In my
> approach, can_dlc should always be filled with the raw DLC value.
Ok, let me rephrase: Filling can_dlc with something else than a plain
length information 0..8 ;-)
(..)
>> The 14 year old documentation in can.h says:
>> @can_dlc: frame payload length in byte (0 .. 8)
>>
>> I will not break this established rule for a testing feature. The
>> question from Joakim clearly showed: Don't touch this!
>
> My point is this is an expert feature: if you do not understand it, do
> not use it and you are safe to go using the 14 years old definition.
Full ACK - but you can't imagine what people do in the real world. Do
you know these 'more helps more' guys that switch everything to 'on'? :-D
The approach with CAN_CTRLMODE_RAW_DLC and the described testing would
be even robust against unintended miss-use.
>> At the end it would have made more sense to call it can_frame.len in the
>> first place. But this first came into our mind when CAN FD showed up.
>> The discussion about the can_dlc meaning can be closed IMO. It is a
>> plain length from 0..8 which is unfortunately named can_dlc.
>
> I agree that it should have been named len from the beginning, but as
> a matter of fact it has been named "can_dlc". For me as a user, I
> expect can_dlc to follow the DLC definition in ISO and so I *prefer*
> to opt for the compromise of losing the plain length property rather
> than losing the semantic meaning.
I don't think you can claim to be a standard user. You are an expert for
security testing and digged into the ISO standard and intentionally
write DLC values >8 into controller registers. Users don't do things
like this ;-)
Clean-up and renaming typically ends when it breaks APIs and commonly
followed rules. There are many examples in Linux where these clean-up
attempts have been canceled for these reasons.
I would have liked to rename can_dlc to len too.
But now that we have a compatible canfd_frame which can contain a
can_frame this is somehow settled: can_dlc == len.
> I would like to conclude by saying that I do necessarily think that
> your approach of raw_dlc field is bad (if used in combination with the
> setsockopt()). It has its pros and cons. However, if you ask me for
> feedback, *my answer* is that *I prefer* to use can_dlc as a DLC. But
> at the end of the day, I would be happy if the feature gets
> implemented, regardless how, so that I can do my testing :-)
So let's see how we can get there best :-)
Best regards,
Oliver
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-10-22 7:15 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 45+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-10-19 19:05 [RFC]: can 2020-10-19 Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 01/16] can: proc: can_remove_proc(): silence remove_proc_entry warning Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 02/16] can: rx-offload: don't call kfree_skb() from IRQ context Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 03/16] can: dev: can_get_echo_skb(): prevent call to kfree_skb() in hard " Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 04/16] can: dev: can_get_len(): add a helper function to get the correct length of Classical frames Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 20:35 ` Oliver Hartkopp
2020-10-20 6:35 ` Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-20 11:30 ` Vincent Mailhol
2020-10-20 11:48 ` Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-20 12:38 ` Oliver Hartkopp
2020-10-20 15:02 ` Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-20 16:07 ` Vincent Mailhol
2020-10-20 17:04 ` Oliver Hartkopp
2020-10-20 18:50 ` Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-21 0:52 ` Vincent Mailhol
2020-10-21 6:23 ` Vincent MAILHOL
2020-10-21 7:11 ` Joakim Zhang
2020-10-21 7:21 ` Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-21 7:48 ` Joakim Zhang
2020-10-21 9:21 ` Oliver Hartkopp
2020-10-21 9:48 ` Oliver Hartkopp
2020-10-21 11:55 ` Vincent MAILHOL
2020-10-21 17:52 ` Oliver Hartkopp
2020-10-22 3:30 ` Vincent MAILHOL
2020-10-22 7:15 ` Oliver Hartkopp [this message]
2020-10-22 12:23 ` Vincent MAILHOL
2020-10-22 13:28 ` Oliver Hartkopp
2020-10-22 15:46 ` Vincent MAILHOL
2020-10-22 17:06 ` Oliver Hartkopp
2020-10-23 10:36 ` Vincent MAILHOL
2020-10-23 16:47 ` Oliver Hartkopp
2020-10-24 5:25 ` Vincent MAILHOL
2020-10-24 11:31 ` Oliver Hartkopp
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 05/16] can: dev: __can_get_echo_skb(): fix the returned length of CAN frame Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 06/16] can: can_create_echo_skb(): fix echo skb generation: always use skb_clone() Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 07/16] can: j1939: j1939_sk_bind(): return failure if netdev is down Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 08/16] can: isotp: Explain PDU in CAN_ISOTP help text Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 09/16] can: isotp: enable RX timeout handling in listen-only mode Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 10/16] can: ti_hecc: add missed clk_disable_unprepare() in error path Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 11/16] can: xilinx_can: handle failure cases of pm_runtime_get_sync Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 12/16] can: peak_usb: fix timestamp wrapping Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 13/16] can: peak_canfd: fix echo management when loopback is on Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 14/16] can: mcp251xfd: mcp251xfd_regmap_crc_read(): increase severity of CRC read error messages Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 15/16] can: mcp251xfd: mcp251xfd_regmap_nocrc_read(): fix semicolon.cocci warnings Marc Kleine-Budde
2020-10-19 19:05 ` [net-rfc 16/16] can: mcp251xfd: remove unneeded break Marc Kleine-Budde
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