From: Nick Desaulniers <ndesaulniers@google.com>
To: Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@gmail.com>
Cc: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
ojeda@kernel.org, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org, linux-kbuild@vger.kernel.org,
linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
Alan Stern <stern@rowland.harvard.edu>,
Andrea Parri <parri.andrea@gmail.com>,
Will Deacon <will@kernel.org>,
Nicholas Piggin <npiggin@gmail.com>,
David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
Jade Alglave <j.alglave@ucl.ac.uk>,
Luc Maranget <luc.maranget@inria.fr>,
"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@kernel.org>,
Akira Yokosawa <akiyks@gmail.com>,
Daniel Lustig <dlustig@nvidia.com>,
Joel Fernandes <joel@joelfernandes.org>,
Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org>,
Wedson Almeida Filho <wedsonaf@google.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 00/13] [RFC] Rust support
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 23:04:37 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAKwvOdnRx+8LhOAnH24CeZz2a2-MwF03oB7Um_pKBq8WAoLNxw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <YHkSO3TUktyPs4Nz@boqun-archlinux>
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 9:27 PM Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [Copy LKMM people, Josh, Nick and Wedson]
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 08:58:16PM +0200, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 08:45:51PM +0200, ojeda@kernel.org wrote:
> >
> > > Rust is a systems programming language that brings several key
> > > advantages over C in the context of the Linux kernel:
> > >
> > > - No undefined behavior in the safe subset (when unsafe code is
> > > sound), including memory safety and the absence of data races.
> >
> > And yet I see not a single mention of the Rust Memory Model and how it
> > aligns (or not) with the LKMM. The C11 memory model for example is a
> > really poor fit for LKMM.
> >
>
> I think Rust currently uses C11 memory model as per:
>
> https://doc.rust-lang.org/nomicon/atomics.html
>
> , also I guess another reason that they pick C11 memory model is because
> LLVM has the support by default.
>
> But I think the Rust Community still wants to have a good memory model,
> and they are open to any kind of suggestion and input. I think we (LKMM
> people) should really get involved, because the recent discussion on
> RISC-V's atomics shows that if we didn't people might get a "broken"
> design because they thought C11 memory model is good enough:
>
> https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/YGyZPCxJYGOvqYZQ@boqun-archlinux/
>
> And the benefits are mutual: a) Linux Kernel Memory Model (LKMM) is
> defined by combining the requirements of developers and the behavior of
> hardwares, it's pratical and can be a very good input for memory model
> designing in Rust; b) Once Rust has a better memory model, the compiler
> technologies whatever Rust compilers use to suppor the memory model can
> be adopted to C compilers and we can get that part for free.
Yes, I agree; I think that's a very good approach. Avoiding the ISO
WG14 is interesting; at least the merits could be debated in the
public and not behind closed doors.
>
> At least I personally is very intereted to help Rust on a complete and
> pratical memory model ;-)
>
> Josh, I think it's good if we can connect to the people working on Rust
> memoryg model, I think the right person is Ralf Jung and the right place
> is https://github.com/rust-lang/unsafe-code-guidelines, but you
> cerntainly know better than me ;-) Or maybe we can use Rust-for-Linux or
> linux-toolchains list to discuss.
>
> [...]
> > > - Boqun Feng is working hard on the different options for
> > > threading abstractions and has reviewed most of the `sync` PRs.
> >
> > Boqun, I know you're familiar with LKMM, can you please talk about how
> > Rust does things and how it interacts?
>
> As Wedson said in the other email, currently there is no code requiring
> synchronization between C side and Rust side, so we are currently fine.
> But in the longer term, we need to teach Rust memory model about the
> "design patterns" used in Linux kernel for parallel programming.
>
> What I have been doing so far is reviewing patches which have memory
> orderings in Rust-for-Linux project, try to make sure we don't include
> memory ordering bugs for the beginning.
>
> Regards,
> Boqun
--
Thanks,
~Nick Desaulniers
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-04-16 6:04 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 203+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-04-14 18:45 [PATCH 00/13] [RFC] Rust support ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 01/13] kallsyms: Support "big" kernel symbols (2-byte lengths) ojeda
2021-04-14 19:44 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-14 19:59 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 02/13] kallsyms: Increase maximum kernel symbol length to 512 ojeda
2021-04-14 23:48 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 03/13] Makefile: Generate CLANG_FLAGS even in GCC builds ojeda
2021-04-14 18:59 ` Nathan Chancellor
2021-04-15 10:18 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 23:46 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15 0:47 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 04/13] Kbuild: Rust support ojeda
2021-04-14 23:19 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15 0:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-15 18:03 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-16 12:23 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-17 19:35 ` Masahiro Yamada
2021-04-16 13:38 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 17:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-16 17:47 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 18:09 ` Al Viro
2021-04-16 18:57 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 20:22 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 20:34 ` Connor Kuehl
2021-04-16 20:58 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 21:39 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 22:04 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 22:45 ` Al Viro
2021-04-16 23:46 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-17 4:24 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-17 15:38 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 21:19 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 17:34 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-19 19:58 ` David Sterba
2021-04-19 20:17 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-19 21:03 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-19 20:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 05/13] Rust: Compiler builtins crate ojeda
2021-04-14 19:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 19:34 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 06/13] Rust: Module crate ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 08/13] Rust: Export generated symbols ojeda
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 09/13] Samples: Rust examples ojeda
2021-04-14 19:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 19:42 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 19:49 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-16 11:46 ` Andrej Shadura
2021-04-14 23:24 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15 7:10 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2021-04-15 7:39 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15 12:42 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 13:07 ` Sven Van Asbroeck
2021-04-16 13:20 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 10/13] Documentation: Rust general information ojeda
2021-04-14 22:17 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-14 23:34 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 11/13] MAINTAINERS: Rust ojeda
2021-04-14 21:55 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-14 22:02 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 22:36 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 12/13] Rust: add abstractions for Binder (WIP) ojeda
[not found] ` <20210414184604.23473-8-ojeda@kernel.org>
2021-04-14 19:31 ` [PATCH 07/13] Rust: Kernel crate Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 19:50 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 19:44 ` [PATCH 00/13] [RFC] Rust support Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 20:20 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-15 1:38 ` Kees Cook
2021-04-15 8:26 ` David Laight
2021-04-15 18:08 ` Kees Cook
2021-04-15 12:39 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 20:09 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-14 20:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 20:35 ` Josh Triplett
2021-04-14 22:08 ` David Laight
2021-04-14 20:29 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-18 15:31 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-15 0:22 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15 10:05 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-15 18:58 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 2:22 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 4:25 ` Al Viro
2021-04-16 5:02 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 5:39 ` Paul Zimmerman
2021-04-16 7:46 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 7:09 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-17 5:23 ` comex
2021-04-17 12:46 ` David Laight
2021-04-17 14:51 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19 7:32 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-19 7:53 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19 8:26 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-19 8:35 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-19 9:02 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19 9:36 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-19 9:40 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19 11:01 ` Will Deacon
2021-04-19 17:14 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-19 18:38 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19 18:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-22 10:03 ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-22 14:09 ` David Laight
2021-04-22 15:24 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-26 0:18 ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-26 14:26 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-26 14:40 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-26 16:03 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-27 10:54 ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-27 11:13 ` Robin Randhawa
2021-04-29 1:52 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-26 18:01 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-22 21:28 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-26 0:31 ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-26 18:18 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-27 11:13 ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-28 2:51 ` Kyle Strand
2021-04-28 3:10 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-05-04 21:21 ` Linus Walleij
2021-05-04 23:30 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-05-05 11:34 ` Linus Walleij
2021-05-05 14:17 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-05-05 15:13 ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-05-06 12:47 ` Linus Walleij
2021-05-07 18:23 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 4:27 ` Boqun Feng
2021-04-16 6:04 ` Nick Desaulniers [this message]
2021-04-16 18:47 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-04-19 20:35 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-19 21:37 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-04-19 22:03 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 20:48 ` Josh Triplett
2021-04-16 8:16 ` Michal Kubecek
2021-04-16 9:29 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 11:24 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 13:07 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 14:19 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 15:04 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 15:43 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 16:21 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 15:33 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 16:14 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 17:10 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 17:18 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 18:08 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-17 11:17 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-17 11:46 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-17 14:24 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-17 14:36 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-17 13:46 ` David Laight
2021-04-16 17:37 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 17:46 ` Connor Kuehl
2021-04-20 0:24 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-20 3:47 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-20 5:56 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2021-04-20 6:16 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-29 15:38 ` peter enderborg
2021-04-17 13:53 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-17 14:21 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-17 15:23 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-18 15:51 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-17 12:41 ` David Laight
2021-04-17 13:01 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 15:03 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-17 13:29 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 15:58 ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-04-16 16:21 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-17 15:11 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-16 14:21 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-17 20:42 ` Richard Weinberger
2021-04-28 18:34 ` Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-28 20:25 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-28 21:21 ` David Laight
2021-04-29 11:14 ` Kajetan Puchalski
2021-04-29 11:25 ` Kajetan Puchalski
2021-04-29 14:06 ` Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-29 14:13 ` Sven Van Asbroeck
2021-04-29 14:26 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-29 15:06 ` Al Viro
2021-04-29 16:09 ` Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-30 6:39 ` Thomas Schoebel-Theuer
2021-04-30 8:30 ` David Laight
2021-05-05 13:58 ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-05-05 14:41 ` Miguel Ojeda
2022-06-20 15:11 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-06-27 17:44 ` Miguel Ojeda
2022-07-18 6:56 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-07-20 19:23 ` Miguel Ojeda
2022-07-20 20:21 ` Nicolas Pitre
2022-07-27 7:47 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-07-27 13:32 ` Nicolas Pitre
2022-07-27 8:05 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-07-28 10:21 ` Gary Guo
2022-07-28 12:09 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2022-07-28 12:28 ` Gary Guo
2022-07-28 20:45 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-07-29 8:04 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2022-07-28 20:43 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-10-15 14:16 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-10-16 1:44 ` Bagas Sanjaya
2022-10-16 1:50 ` Bagas Sanjaya
2022-10-16 13:23 ` Josh Triplett
2021-04-29 5:20 Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-29 5:21 Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-29 8:18 ` David Laight
2021-07-30 23:22 Dillan Jackson
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