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From: James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@HansenPartnership.com>
To: "Gustavo A. R. Silva" <gustavoars@kernel.org>
Cc: Joe Perches <joe@perches.com>, Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
	Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>,
	alsa-devel@alsa-project.org,
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	Jonathan Cameron <Jonathan.Cameron@huawei.com>,
	Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [Intel-wired-lan] [PATCH 000/141] Fix fall-through warnings for Clang
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:31:30 -0800
Message-ID: <8f5611bb015e044fa1c0a48147293923c2d904e4.camel@HansenPartnership.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20201123130348.GA3119@embeddedor>

On Mon, 2020-11-23 at 07:03 -0600, Gustavo A. R. Silva wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 11:53:55AM -0800, James Bottomley wrote:
> > On Sun, 2020-11-22 at 11:22 -0800, Joe Perches wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2020-11-22 at 11:12 -0800, James Bottomley wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 2020-11-22 at 10:25 -0800, Joe Perches wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, 2020-11-22 at 10:21 -0800, James Bottomley wrote:
> > > > > > Please tell me our reward for all this effort isn't a
> > > > > > single missing error print.
> > > > > 
> > > > > There were quite literally dozens of logical defects found
> > > > > by the fallthrough additions.  Very few were logging only.
> > > > 
> > > > So can you give us the best examples (or indeed all of them if
> > > > someone is keeping score)?  hopefully this isn't a US election
> > > > situation ...
> > > 
> > > Gustavo?  Are you running for congress now?
> > > 
> > > https://lwn.net/Articles/794944/
> > 
> > That's 21 reported fixes of which about 50% seem to produce no
> > change in code behaviour at all, a quarter seem to have no user
> > visible effect with the remaining quarter producing unexpected
> > errors on obscure configuration parameters, which is why no-one
> > really noticed them before.
> 
> The really important point here is the number of bugs this has
> prevented and will prevent in the future. See an example of this,
> below:
> 
> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-iio/20190813135802.GB27392@kroah.com/

I think this falls into the same category as the other six bugs: it
changes the output/input for parameters but no-one has really noticed,
usually because the command is obscure or the bias effect is minor.

> This work is still relevant, even if the total number of issues/bugs
> we find in the process is zero (which is not the case).

Really, no ... something which produces no improvement has no value at
all ... we really shouldn't be wasting maintainer time with it because
it has a cost to merge.  I'm not sure we understand where the balance
lies in value vs cost to merge but I am confident in the zero value
case.

> "The sucky thing about doing hard work to deploy hardening is that
> the result is totally invisible by definition (things not happening)
> [..]"
> - Dmitry Vyukov

Really, no.  Something that can't be measured at all doesn't exist.

And actually hardening is one of those things you can measure (which I
do have to admit isn't true for everything in the security space) ...
it's number of exploitable bugs found before you did it vs number of
exploitable bugs found after you did it.  Usually hardening eliminates
a class of bug, so the way I've measured hardening before is to go
through the CVE list for the last couple of years for product X, find
all the bugs that are of the class we're looking to eliminate and say
if we had hardened X against this class of bug we'd have eliminated Y%
of the exploits.  It can be quite impressive if Y is a suitably big
number.

James



  reply index

Thread overview: 70+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-20 18:21 Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-20 18:28 ` Joe Perches
2020-11-20 19:02   ` Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-20 18:40 ` [PATCH 134/141] video: fbdev: lxfb_ops: " Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-22 22:05   ` Sam Ravnborg
2020-11-24 14:44     ` Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-20 18:40 ` [PATCH 135/141] video: fbdev: pm2fb: " Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-20 18:53 ` [PATCH 000/141] " Jakub Kicinski
2020-11-20 19:04   ` Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-20 19:30   ` Kees Cook
2020-11-20 19:51     ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-11-20 20:48       ` Kees Cook
2020-11-22 16:17       ` Kees Cook
2020-11-22 18:21         ` James Bottomley
2020-11-22 18:25           ` Joe Perches
2020-11-22 19:12             ` James Bottomley
2020-11-22 19:22               ` Joe Perches
2020-11-22 19:53                 ` James Bottomley
2020-11-23 13:03                   ` [Intel-wired-lan] " Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-11-23 16:31                     ` James Bottomley [this message]
2020-11-24 21:32                       ` Kees Cook
2020-11-24 22:24                         ` Finn Thain
2020-11-24 23:15                           ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-24 23:53                             ` Finn Thain
2020-11-25  1:05                               ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-25  7:05                         ` James Bottomley
2020-11-25 12:24                           ` Nick Desaulniers
2020-11-25 21:33                             ` Finn Thain
2020-11-25 22:09                               ` Nick Desaulniers
2020-11-25 23:21                                 ` Finn Thain
2020-11-26  0:30                                 ` Finn Thain
     [not found]                             ` <20201125082405.1d8c23dc@kicinski-fedora-pc1c0hjn.dhcp.thefacebook.com>
2020-11-25 17:04                               ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-25 22:09                               ` Nick Desaulniers
2020-11-25 21:10                           ` Kees Cook
2020-11-22 20:35           ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-22 22:36             ` James Bottomley
2020-11-23 14:19               ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-23 15:58                 ` James Bottomley
2020-11-23 16:24                   ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2020-11-23 16:32                   ` Joe Perches
2020-11-23 18:56                   ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-23 20:37                     ` James Bottomley
2020-11-25  0:32                       ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-25 22:44                         ` Edward Cree
2020-11-26 14:53                           ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-26 15:28                             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2020-11-26 16:18                               ` Karol Herbst
2020-11-26 17:05                               ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-25 10:38                       ` Andy Shevchenko
2020-11-25  9:01                   ` Sean Young
2020-11-22 22:54             ` Finn Thain
2020-11-22 23:04               ` James Bottomley
2020-11-23 14:05               ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-24  0:58                 ` Finn Thain
2020-11-24  1:05                   ` Joe Perches
2020-11-24  2:48                     ` Finn Thain
2020-11-24 23:46                   ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-22 22:10           ` Sam Ravnborg
2020-11-24  1:32         ` Nick Desaulniers
2020-11-24 21:25           ` Kees Cook
2020-11-25 23:02             ` Edward Cree
2020-12-01 14:08           ` Dan Carpenter
2020-12-01 14:04         ` Dan Carpenter
2020-11-20 22:21 ` Miguel Ojeda
2020-11-23 20:03 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2020-11-24 14:47   ` Gustavo A. R. Silva
     [not found] ` <160616392671.21180.16517492185091399884.b4-ty@kernel.org>
2020-11-24 14:47   ` Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-12-01  5:52 ` Martin K. Petersen
2020-12-01  8:20   ` Gustavo A. R. Silva
2020-12-08  4:52 ` (subset) " Martin K. Petersen

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