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From: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
To: Tetsuo Handa <penguin-kernel@i-love.sakura.ne.jp>
Cc: "Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@xmission.com>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>,
	David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>,
	Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>,
	Masahiro Yamada <yamada.masahiro@socionext.com>,
	Gary Lin <GLin@suse.com>, Bruno Meneguele <bmeneg@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH] net/bpfilter: Remove this broken and apparently unmantained
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 20:38:21 -0700
Message-ID: <20200613033821.l62q2ed5ligheyhu@ast-mbp> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <62859212-df69-b913-c1e0-cd2e358d1adf@i-love.sakura.ne.jp>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 09:57:40AM +0900, Tetsuo Handa wrote:
> 
> , the userspace memory can be easily interfered from userspace. The kernel module
> running in kernel space is protected (unless methods like /dev/{mem,kmem} are used)
> but the kernel module running in user space is not protected.

huh? One user process 'can easily interfere' with memory of other process?

> 
> You said
> 
>   What you're saying is tomoyo doesn't trust kernel modules that are built-in
>   as part of vmlinux and doesn't trust vmlinux build.
> 
> but the word 'trust' has multiple aspects. One of aspects is "can the program
> contain malicious code?" which would be mitigated by cryptographic signing

usermode_blob is either part of kernel module or part of vmlinux.
If it's part of vmlinux it's inherently trusted.
If it's part of ko it's signed along with the rest of ko.

> We might need to invent built-in "protected userspace" because existing
> "unprotected userspace" is not trustworthy enough to run kernel modules.
> That's not just inventing fork_usermode_blob().

sorry, but this makes no sense at all to me.

> can be interfered) is so painful. I won't be able to trust kernel modules running
> in userspace memory.

The part that I suspect is still missing is what triggers fork_usermode_blob().
It's always kernel code == trusted code.

Currently we have the following:

vmlinux {
  core code of kernel
  built-in mod_A {
    kernel code
  }
  built-in mod_B {
    kernel code
  }
}
loadable mod_C {
  kernel code
}

With fork_usermode_blob() kernel modules can delegate parts of their
functionality to run in user space:

vmlinux {
  core code of kernel
  built-in mod_A {
    kernel code
    code to run in user space
  }
  built-in mod_B {
    kernel code
    code to run in user space
  }
}
loadable mod_C {
  kernel code
  code to run in user space
}

The interface between kernel part of .ko and user part of .ko is
specific to that particular kernel module. It's not a typical user space.
Take bpfilter, for example. It has its own format of structures
that are being passed between kernel side of bpfilter and user side
of bpfilter. It's bpfilter's internal interface that doesn't
create user api. bpfilter in kernel 5.x could be passing different
structs vs bpfilter in kernel 6.x.
It also cannot be started via init=, but it has to be ready
if pid 1 needs it.
Say, bpfilter was compiled as loadable kernel module.
In such case bpfilter.ko will not be loaded into the kernel
until the first iptables sockopt. It may never be loaded.
But when loaded the bpfilter.ko will start its user space side
via fork_usermode_blob() that is specific to that version of .ko.
Other kernel modules like bpf_lsm.ko will decide what's appropriate
for them in terms of when user side should start and exit.
Likely bpf_lsm.ko would want to be built-in.
In all cases kernel module cannot rely on traditional usermode_helper,
because usermode_helper is true uapi. The admin can boot kernel 5.x
and it must work with usermode_helpers installed in rootfs. The admin
will reboot to kernel 6.x and it should still work without changing rootfs.
Whereas usermode_blobs are ko and kernel specific.

  reply index

Thread overview: 193+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <20200329005528.xeKtdz2A0%akpm@linux-foundation.org>
     [not found] ` <13fb3ab7-9ab1-b25f-52f2-40a6ca5655e1@i-love.sakura.ne.jp>
     [not found]   ` <202006051903.C44988B@keescook>
2020-06-06 19:20     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-06 20:19       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-06 22:33         ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-07  1:49           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-07  2:19             ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-07 16:09               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-08 16:20               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 16:40                 ` Greg KH
2020-06-08 18:35                 ` Kees Cook
2020-06-09  1:26                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09 15:37                     ` Kees Cook
2020-06-09 19:51                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07  2:31             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-08 16:23               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 23:22                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-09  1:28                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09  5:29                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-09 22:32                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09 23:30                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10  0:05                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10  3:08                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10  3:32                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10  7:30                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10 16:24                                   ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-09 20:02                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-09 23:56                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10 21:12                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-11 23:31                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-12  0:57                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-13  3:38                           ` Alexei Starovoitov [this message]
2020-06-13  4:22                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-13 14:08                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-13 15:33                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-13 16:14                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-14 14:51                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-16  1:55                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-16 16:21                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-23 18:04                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-23 18:35                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-23 18:53                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-23 19:40                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24  1:51                                           ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24  4:00                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24  4:58                                               ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24  6:39                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24  7:05                                                   ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24 15:41                                                     ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-24 17:54                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 19:48                                                         ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-24  6:05                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 14:18                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 12:13                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-24 14:26                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 23:14                                               ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25  1:35                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-25  6:38                                                   ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25  9:57                                                     ` Greg KH
2020-06-25 11:03                                                       ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 12:07                                                         ` Greg KH
2020-06-25 14:21                                                           ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 19:34                                                           ` David Miller
2020-06-26  1:36                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-26  1:51                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26  4:58                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26  5:41                                                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26  6:20                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26  6:39                                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26 12:51                                                               ` [PATCH 00/14] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:53                                                                 ` [PATCH 01/14] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:53                                                                 ` [PATCH 02/14] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:54                                                                 ` [PATCH 03/14] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:54                                                                 ` [PATCH 04/14] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:55                                                                 ` [PATCH 05/14] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 16:22                                                                   ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26 16:45                                                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27  1:26                                                                       ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-27  4:21                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27  4:36                                                                           ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26 12:55                                                                 ` [PATCH 06/14] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 15:37                                                                   ` Kees Cook
2020-06-26 16:31                                                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:56                                                                 ` [PATCH 07/14] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:56                                                                 ` [PATCH 08/14] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:57                                                                 ` [PATCH 09/14] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:57                                                                 ` [PATCH 10/14] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:58                                                                 ` [PATCH 11/14] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:58                                                                 ` [PATCH 12/14] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:59                                                                 ` [PATCH 13/14] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:59                                                                 ` [PATCH 14/14] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 13:48                                                                 ` [PATCH 00/14] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:55                                                                   ` [PATCH v2 00/15] " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:56                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 01/15] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:57                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 02/15] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:57                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 03/15] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:59                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 04/15] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:00                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 05/15] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:58                                                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2020-07-01 17:18                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-01 17:42                                                                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29 20:01                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 06/15] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:02                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 07/15] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:03                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 08/15] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:03                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 09/15] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:04                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 10/15] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30  5:43                                                                       ` Christoph Hellwig
2020-06-30 12:14                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 13:38                                                                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2020-06-30 14:28                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:55                                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29 20:05                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 11/15] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:06                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 12/15] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:06                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 13/15] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:07                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 14/15] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:08                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 15/15] umd: Stop using split_argv Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 22:12                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 00/15] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30  1:13                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30  6:16                                                                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 12:29                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 13:21                                                                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-02 13:08                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 13:40                                                                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-02 16:02                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-03 13:19                                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-03 22:25                                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04  6:57                                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-08  4:46                                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:52                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-01 17:12                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:40                                                                     ` [PATCH v3 00/16] " Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 01/16] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 02/16] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 03/16] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 04/16] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 05/16] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 06/16] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 07/16] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 08/16] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 09/16] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 10/16] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08  6:35                                                                         ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-08 12:41                                                                           ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-08 13:08                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08 13:32                                                                               ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-12 21:02                                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 11/16] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 12/16] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 13/16] exit: Factor thread_group_exited out of pidfd_poll Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-03 20:30                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-03 21:37                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04  0:03                                                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-04 15:50                                                                             ` Christian Brauner
2020-07-07 17:09                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08  0:05                                                                                 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-07-08  3:50                                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04 16:00                                                                         ` Christian Brauner
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 14/16] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 15/16] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 16/16] umd: Stop using split_argv Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 23:51                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 00/16] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-09 22:05                                                                       ` [merged][PATCH " Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-14 19:42                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-08  5:20                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 00/15] " Luis Chamberlain
2020-06-26 14:10                                                                 ` [PATCH 00/14] " Greg Kroah-Hartman
2020-06-26 16:40                                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26 17:17                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 18:22                                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-27 11:38                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-27 12:59                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27 13:57                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-28 19:44                                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29  2:20                                                                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-29 20:19                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30  6:28                                                                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 12:32                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:48                                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30 21:54                                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 21:57                                                                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30 22:58                                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 12:56                                                 ` [RFC][PATCH] net/bpfilter: Remove this broken and apparently unmantained Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 13:25                                                   ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2020-06-25 14:26                                                     ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 14:36                                                       ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 15:21                                                       ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 16:03                                                         ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 16:06                                                         ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-26 11:30                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07  5:58             ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07 11:56               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-08 16:35                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 16:33               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-06 20:43       ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-06-07 15:51         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07  1:13       ` Tetsuo Handa

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