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From: Tetsuo Handa <penguin-kernel@i-love.sakura.ne.jp>
To: "Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@xmission.com>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <greg@kroah.com>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>,
	Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>,
	Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>,
	Masahiro Yamada <yamada.masahiro@socionext.com>,
	Gary Lin <GLin@suse.com>, Bruno Meneguele <bmeneg@redhat.com>,
	LSM List <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>,
	Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 05/14] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 10:26:33 +0900
Message-ID: <32604829-35f7-5263-aff1-27808500c1d1@i-love.sakura.ne.jp> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87d05lbwt4.fsf@x220.int.ebiederm.org>

On 2020/06/27 1:45, Eric W. Biederman wrote:
>> After this cleanup, I expect adding some protections/isolation which kernel threads
>> have (e.g. excluded from ptrace(), excluded from OOM victim selection, excluded from
>> SysRq-i, won't be terminated by SIGKILL from usermode processes, won't be stopped by
>> SIGSTOP from usermode processes, what else?). Doing it means giving up Alexei's
>>
>>   It's nice to be able to compile that blob with -g and be able to 'gdb -p' into it.
>>   That works and very convenient when it comes to debugging. Compare that to debugging
>>   a kernel module!
>>
>> but I think doing it is essential for keeping usermode blob processes as secure/robust
>> as kernel threads.
> 
> Do you have an application for a user mode driver?

No, I'm not a user of this interface.

> 
> I think concerns like that are best addressed in the context of a
> specific driver/usecase.  Just to make certain we are solving the right
> problems.
> 
> My sense is that an advantage of user mode drivers can safely be buggier
> than kernel drivers and the freedom to kill them when the drivers go
> wrong (knowing the drivers will restart) is important.

Right. Segmentation fault in user mode drivers does not cause a kernel oops
is an advantage of user mode drivers. But the freedom to disturb/kill user mode
drivers due to interference like ptrace()/signals from user mode processes,
SIGKILL from OOM-killer/SysRq-i etc. is a big disadvantage of user mode drivers.
I expect that user mode drivers should be killable only when the manager
interface detected that user mode drivers need to be stopped (or restarted).

One of advantages kernel mode drivers have is that their memory is not swapped
out/in. I don't know whether mlockall(MCL_FUTURE) should be automatically applied
to user mode drivers.

> 
> Does this series by using the normal path through exec solve your
> concerns with LSMs being able to identify these processes (both
> individually and as class)?.

I guess "yes" for pathname based LSMs. Though, TOMOYO wants to obtain both
AT_SYMLINK_NOFOLLOW "struct path" and !AT_SYMLINK_NOFOLLOW "struct path"
at do_open_execat() from do_execveat_common().

I guess "no" for inode based LSMs, for they want a chance to associate
security labels at blob_to_mnt().


  reply index

Thread overview: 193+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <20200329005528.xeKtdz2A0%akpm@linux-foundation.org>
     [not found] ` <13fb3ab7-9ab1-b25f-52f2-40a6ca5655e1@i-love.sakura.ne.jp>
     [not found]   ` <202006051903.C44988B@keescook>
2020-06-06 19:20     ` [RFC][PATCH] net/bpfilter: Remove this broken and apparently unmantained Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-06 20:19       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-06 22:33         ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-07  1:49           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-07  2:19             ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-07 16:09               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-08 16:20               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 16:40                 ` Greg KH
2020-06-08 18:35                 ` Kees Cook
2020-06-09  1:26                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09 15:37                     ` Kees Cook
2020-06-09 19:51                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07  2:31             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-08 16:23               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 23:22                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-09  1:28                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09  5:29                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-09 22:32                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09 23:30                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10  0:05                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10  3:08                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10  3:32                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10  7:30                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10 16:24                                   ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-09 20:02                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-09 23:56                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10 21:12                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-11 23:31                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-12  0:57                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-13  3:38                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-13  4:22                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-13 14:08                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-13 15:33                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-13 16:14                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-14 14:51                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-16  1:55                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-16 16:21                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-23 18:04                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-23 18:35                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-23 18:53                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-23 19:40                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24  1:51                                           ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24  4:00                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24  4:58                                               ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24  6:39                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24  7:05                                                   ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24 15:41                                                     ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-24 17:54                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 19:48                                                         ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-24  6:05                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 14:18                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 12:13                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-24 14:26                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 23:14                                               ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25  1:35                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-25  6:38                                                   ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25  9:57                                                     ` Greg KH
2020-06-25 11:03                                                       ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 12:07                                                         ` Greg KH
2020-06-25 14:21                                                           ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 19:34                                                           ` David Miller
2020-06-26  1:36                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-26  1:51                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26  4:58                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26  5:41                                                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26  6:20                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26  6:39                                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26 12:51                                                               ` [PATCH 00/14] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:53                                                                 ` [PATCH 01/14] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:53                                                                 ` [PATCH 02/14] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:54                                                                 ` [PATCH 03/14] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:54                                                                 ` [PATCH 04/14] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:55                                                                 ` [PATCH 05/14] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 16:22                                                                   ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26 16:45                                                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27  1:26                                                                       ` Tetsuo Handa [this message]
2020-06-27  4:21                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27  4:36                                                                           ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26 12:55                                                                 ` [PATCH 06/14] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 15:37                                                                   ` Kees Cook
2020-06-26 16:31                                                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:56                                                                 ` [PATCH 07/14] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:56                                                                 ` [PATCH 08/14] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:57                                                                 ` [PATCH 09/14] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:57                                                                 ` [PATCH 10/14] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:58                                                                 ` [PATCH 11/14] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:58                                                                 ` [PATCH 12/14] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:59                                                                 ` [PATCH 13/14] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:59                                                                 ` [PATCH 14/14] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 13:48                                                                 ` [PATCH 00/14] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:55                                                                   ` [PATCH v2 00/15] " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:56                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 01/15] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:57                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 02/15] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:57                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 03/15] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:59                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 04/15] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:00                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 05/15] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:58                                                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2020-07-01 17:18                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-01 17:42                                                                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29 20:01                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 06/15] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:02                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 07/15] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:03                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 08/15] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:03                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 09/15] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:04                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 10/15] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30  5:43                                                                       ` Christoph Hellwig
2020-06-30 12:14                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 13:38                                                                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2020-06-30 14:28                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:55                                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29 20:05                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 11/15] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:06                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 12/15] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:06                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 13/15] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:07                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 14/15] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:08                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 15/15] umd: Stop using split_argv Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 22:12                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 00/15] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30  1:13                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30  6:16                                                                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 12:29                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 13:21                                                                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-02 13:08                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 13:40                                                                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-02 16:02                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-03 13:19                                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-03 22:25                                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04  6:57                                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-08  4:46                                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:52                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-01 17:12                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:40                                                                     ` [PATCH v3 00/16] " Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 01/16] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 02/16] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 03/16] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 04/16] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 05/16] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 06/16] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 07/16] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 08/16] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 09/16] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 10/16] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08  6:35                                                                         ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-08 12:41                                                                           ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-08 13:08                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08 13:32                                                                               ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-12 21:02                                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 11/16] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 12/16] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 13/16] exit: Factor thread_group_exited out of pidfd_poll Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-03 20:30                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-03 21:37                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04  0:03                                                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-04 15:50                                                                             ` Christian Brauner
2020-07-07 17:09                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08  0:05                                                                                 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-07-08  3:50                                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04 16:00                                                                         ` Christian Brauner
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 14/16] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 15/16] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 16/16] umd: Stop using split_argv Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 23:51                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 00/16] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-09 22:05                                                                       ` [merged][PATCH " Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-14 19:42                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-08  5:20                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 00/15] " Luis Chamberlain
2020-06-26 14:10                                                                 ` [PATCH 00/14] " Greg Kroah-Hartman
2020-06-26 16:40                                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26 17:17                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 18:22                                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-27 11:38                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-27 12:59                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27 13:57                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-28 19:44                                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29  2:20                                                                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-29 20:19                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30  6:28                                                                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 12:32                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:48                                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30 21:54                                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 21:57                                                                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30 22:58                                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 12:56                                                 ` [RFC][PATCH] net/bpfilter: Remove this broken and apparently unmantained Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 13:25                                                   ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2020-06-25 14:26                                                     ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 14:36                                                       ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 15:21                                                       ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 16:03                                                         ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 16:06                                                         ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-26 11:30                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07  5:58             ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07 11:56               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-08 16:35                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 16:33               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-06 20:43       ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-06-07 15:51         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07  1:13       ` Tetsuo Handa

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