From: David Gibson <david@gibson.dropbear.id.au>
To: Jason Gunthorpe <jgg@nvidia.com>
Cc: Jean-Philippe Brucker <jean-philippe@linaro.org>,
"Tian, Kevin" <kevin.tian@intel.com>,
"Alex Williamson \(alex.williamson@redhat.com\)"
<alex.williamson@redhat.com>, "Raj, Ashok" <ashok.raj@intel.com>,
"kvm@vger.kernel.org" <kvm@vger.kernel.org>,
Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net>,
Robin Murphy <robin.murphy@arm.com>,
LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Kirti Wankhede <kwankhede@nvidia.com>,
"iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org"
<iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org>,
"Jiang, Dave" <dave.jiang@intel.com>,
David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>,
Jason Wang <jasowang@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC] /dev/ioasid uAPI proposal
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2021 16:04:26 +1000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <YL8Iam4+cog7oVDa@yekko> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20210603122832.GS1002214@nvidia.com>
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5843 bytes --]
On Thu, Jun 03, 2021 at 09:28:32AM -0300, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 03, 2021 at 03:23:17PM +1000, David Gibson wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 02, 2021 at 01:37:53PM -0300, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jun 02, 2021 at 04:57:52PM +1000, David Gibson wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't think presence or absence of a group fd makes a lot of
> > > > difference to this design. Having a group fd just means we attach
> > > > groups to the ioasid instead of individual devices, and we no longer
> > > > need the bookkeeping of "partial" devices.
> > >
> > > Oh, I think we really don't want to attach the group to an ioasid, or
> > > at least not as a first-class idea.
> > >
> > > The fundamental problem that got us here is we now live in a world
> > > where there are many ways to attach a device to an IOASID:
> >
> > I'm not seeing that that's necessarily a problem.
> >
> > > - A RID binding
> > > - A RID,PASID binding
> > > - A RID,PASID binding for ENQCMD
> >
> > I have to admit I haven't fully grasped the differences between these
> > modes. I'm hoping we can consolidate at least some of them into the
> > same sort of binding onto different IOASIDs (which may be linked in
> > parent/child relationships).
>
> What I would like is that the /dev/iommu side managing the IOASID
> doesn't really care much, but the device driver has to tell
> drivers/iommu what it is going to do when it attaches.
By the device driver, do you mean the userspace or guest device
driver? Or do you mean the vfio_pci or mdev "shim" device driver"?
> It makes sense, in PCI terms, only the driver knows what TLPs the
> device will generate. The IOMMU needs to know what TLPs it will
> recieve to configure properly.
>
> PASID or not is major device specific variation, as is the ENQCMD/etc
>
> Having the device be explicit when it tells the IOMMU what it is going
> to be sending is a major plus to me. I actually don't want to see this
> part of the interface be made less strong.
Ok, if I'm understanding this right a PASID capable IOMMU will be able
to process *both* transactions with just a RID and transactions with a
RID+PASID.
So if we're thinking of this notional 84ish-bit address space, then
that includes "no PASID" as well as all the possible PASID values.
Yes? Or am I confused?
>
> > > The selection of which mode to use is based on the specific
> > > driver/device operation. Ie the thing that implements the 'struct
> > > vfio_device' is the thing that has to select the binding mode.
> >
> > I thought userspace selected the binding mode - although not all modes
> > will be possible for all devices.
>
> /dev/iommu is concerned with setting up the IOAS and filling the IO
> page tables with information
>
> The driver behind "struct vfio_device" is responsible to "route" its
> HW into that IOAS.
>
> They are two halfs of the problem, one is only the io page table, and one
> the is connection of a PCI TLP to a specific io page table.
>
> Only the driver knows what format of TLPs the device will generate so
> only the driver can specify the "route"
Ok. I'd really like if we can encode this in a way that doesn't build
PCI-specific structure into the API, though.
>
> > > eg if two PCI devices are in a group then it is perfectly fine that
> > > one device uses RID binding and the other device uses RID,PASID
> > > binding.
> >
> > Uhhhh... I don't see how that can be. They could well be in the same
> > group because their RIDs cannot be distinguished from each other.
>
> Inability to match the RID is rare, certainly I would expect any IOMMU
> HW that can do PCIEe PASID matching can also do RID matching.
It's not just up to the IOMMU. The obvious case is a PCIe-to-PCI
bridge. All transactions show the RID of the bridge, because vanilla
PCI doesn't have them. Same situation with a buggy multifunction
device which uses function 0's RID for all functions.
It may be rare, but we still have to deal with it one way or another.
I really don't think we want to support multiple binding types for a
single group.
> With
> such HW the above is perfectly fine - the group may not be secure
> between members (eg !ACS), but the TLPs still carry valid RIDs and
> PASID and the IOMMU can still discriminate.
They carry RIDs, whether they're valid depends on how buggy your
hardware is.
> I think you are talking about really old IOMMU's that could only
> isolate based on ingress port or something.. I suppose modern PCIe has
> some cases like this in the NTB stuff too.
Depends what you mean by really old. They may seem really old to
those working on new fancy IOMMU technology. But I hit problems in
practice not long ago with awkwardly multi-device groups because it
was on a particular Dell server without ACS implementation. Likewise
I strongly suspect non-PASID IOMMUs will remain common on low end
hardware (like peoples' laptops) for some time.
> Oh, I hadn't spent time thinking about any of those.. It is messy but
> it can still be forced to work, I guess. A device centric model means
> all the devices using the same routing ID have to be connected to the
> same IOASID by userspace. So some of the connections will be NOPs.
See, that's exactly what I thought the group checks were enforcing.
I'm really hoping we don't need two levels of granularity here: groups
of devices that can't be identified from each other, and then groups
of those that can't be isolated from each other. That introduces a
huge amount of extra conceptual complexity.
--
David Gibson | I'll have my music baroque, and my code
david AT gibson.dropbear.id.au | minimalist, thank you. NOT _the_ _other_
| _way_ _around_!
http://www.ozlabs.org/~dgibson
[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 156 bytes --]
_______________________________________________
iommu mailing list
iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/iommu
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-06-08 6:54 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 260+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-05-27 7:58 [RFC] /dev/ioasid uAPI proposal Tian, Kevin
2021-05-28 2:24 ` Jason Wang
2021-05-28 20:25 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-05-31 8:41 ` Liu Yi L
2021-06-01 2:36 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-01 3:31 ` Liu Yi L
2021-06-01 5:08 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-01 5:23 ` Lu Baolu
2021-06-01 5:29 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-01 5:42 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-01 6:07 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-01 6:16 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-01 8:47 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-01 17:31 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 8:54 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-02 17:21 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-07 13:30 ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-06-07 18:01 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-08 10:45 ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-06-10 2:16 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-08 1:10 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-08 13:20 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-10 2:00 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-10 4:03 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-10 11:47 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-11 5:43 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-01 17:29 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 8:58 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-01 4:27 ` Shenming Lu
2021-06-01 5:10 ` Jason Wang
2021-05-28 16:23 ` Jean-Philippe Brucker
2021-05-28 20:16 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-01 7:50 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-05-28 17:35 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-01 8:10 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-01 17:42 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 1:33 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-02 16:09 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-03 1:29 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-03 5:09 ` David Gibson
2021-06-03 6:49 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-03 11:47 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 2:15 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-08 0:49 ` David Gibson
2021-06-09 2:52 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-02 6:32 ` David Gibson
2021-06-02 16:16 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-03 2:11 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-03 5:13 ` David Gibson
2021-06-03 11:52 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-08 0:53 ` David Gibson
2021-06-08 19:04 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-17 2:42 ` David Gibson
2021-05-28 19:58 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-01 8:38 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-01 17:56 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 2:00 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-02 6:57 ` David Gibson
2021-06-02 16:37 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-03 5:23 ` David Gibson
2021-06-03 12:28 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-08 6:04 ` David Gibson [this message]
2021-06-08 19:23 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 6:48 ` David Gibson
2021-06-02 16:58 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-03 2:49 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-03 5:48 ` David Gibson
2021-06-03 5:45 ` David Gibson
2021-06-03 12:11 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 6:08 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-04 12:33 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 23:20 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-08 6:13 ` David Gibson
2021-06-04 10:24 ` Jean-Philippe Brucker
2021-06-04 12:05 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 17:27 ` Jacob Pan
2021-06-04 17:40 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-08 6:31 ` David Gibson
2021-06-10 16:37 ` Jean-Philippe Brucker
2021-06-17 3:00 ` David Gibson
2021-06-18 17:03 ` Jean-Philippe Brucker
2021-06-18 18:30 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-23 8:19 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-23 7:57 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-24 3:49 ` David Gibson
2021-05-28 20:03 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-01 7:01 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-01 20:28 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 1:25 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-02 23:27 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 8:17 ` Jean-Philippe Brucker
2021-06-04 8:43 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-02 8:52 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-02 16:07 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-01 22:22 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-02 2:20 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-02 16:01 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 17:11 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-02 17:35 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 18:01 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-02 18:09 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 19:00 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-02 19:54 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 20:37 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-02 22:45 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-03 2:50 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-03 3:22 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-03 4:14 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-03 5:18 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-03 12:40 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-03 20:41 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-04 9:19 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-04 15:37 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-04 12:13 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 21:45 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-04 7:33 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-03 12:34 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-03 20:01 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-03 20:10 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-03 21:44 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-04 8:38 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-04 12:28 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 15:26 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-04 15:40 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-06-04 15:50 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 15:57 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-06-04 16:03 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 16:10 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-06-04 17:22 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 21:29 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-04 23:01 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-07 15:41 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-07 18:18 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-07 18:59 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-07 19:08 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-07 19:41 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-07 23:03 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-08 0:30 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-08 1:20 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-30 6:53 ` Christoph Hellwig
2021-06-30 6:49 ` Christoph Hellwig
2021-06-07 3:25 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-07 6:51 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-06-07 18:01 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-30 6:56 ` Christoph Hellwig
2021-06-05 6:22 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-06-07 3:50 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-07 17:59 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-08 7:56 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-06-08 13:15 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-08 13:44 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-06-08 18:47 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-08 19:00 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-09 8:51 ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-06-09 9:11 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-06-09 11:54 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-09 14:31 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-09 14:45 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-09 15:20 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-10-27 6:18 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-10-27 10:32 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-10-28 1:50 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-09 2:49 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-09 11:57 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-09 12:46 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-06-09 12:47 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-09 13:24 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-06-09 14:32 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-30 7:01 ` Christoph Hellwig
2021-06-09 18:09 ` Alex Williamson
2021-06-03 2:52 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-03 13:09 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 1:11 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-04 11:58 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-07 3:18 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-07 14:14 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-08 1:00 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-08 8:54 ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-06-08 12:52 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-30 7:07 ` Christoph Hellwig
2021-06-30 7:05 ` Christoph Hellwig
2021-06-08 2:37 ` David Gibson
2021-06-08 13:17 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-17 3:47 ` David Gibson
2021-06-23 7:59 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-24 3:53 ` David Gibson
2021-05-28 23:36 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-05-31 11:31 ` Liu Yi L
2021-05-31 18:09 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-01 3:08 ` Lu Baolu
2021-06-01 17:24 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-01 1:25 ` Lu Baolu
2021-06-01 11:09 ` Lu Baolu
2021-06-01 17:26 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 4:01 ` Lu Baolu
2021-06-02 23:23 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-03 5:49 ` Lu Baolu
2021-06-03 5:54 ` David Gibson
2021-06-03 6:50 ` Lu Baolu
2021-06-03 12:56 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 7:22 ` David Gibson
2021-06-03 6:39 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-03 13:05 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 6:37 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-04 12:09 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 23:10 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-07 17:54 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-15 8:59 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-15 15:06 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-15 22:59 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-15 23:02 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-15 23:09 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-15 23:40 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-15 23:56 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-15 23:59 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-16 0:02 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-05-31 17:37 ` Parav Pandit
2021-05-31 18:12 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-01 12:04 ` Parav Pandit
2021-06-01 17:36 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 8:38 ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-06-02 12:41 ` Parav Pandit
2021-06-01 4:31 ` Shenming Lu
2021-06-01 5:10 ` Lu Baolu
2021-06-01 7:15 ` Shenming Lu
2021-06-01 12:30 ` Lu Baolu
2021-06-01 13:10 ` Shenming Lu
2021-06-01 17:33 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-02 4:50 ` Shenming Lu
2021-06-03 18:19 ` Jacob Pan
2021-06-04 1:30 ` Jason Wang
2021-06-04 16:22 ` Jacob Pan
2021-06-04 16:22 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 18:05 ` Jacob Pan
2021-06-04 2:03 ` Shenming Lu
2021-06-07 12:19 ` Liu, Yi L
2021-06-08 1:09 ` Shenming Lu
2021-06-01 17:30 ` Parav Pandit
2021-06-03 20:58 ` Jacob Pan
2021-06-08 6:30 ` Parav Pandit
2021-06-02 6:15 ` David Gibson
2021-06-02 17:19 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-03 3:02 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-03 6:26 ` David Gibson
2021-06-03 12:46 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 6:27 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-03 7:17 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-03 12:49 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-08 5:49 ` David Gibson
2021-06-03 8:12 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-17 4:07 ` David Gibson
2021-06-23 8:00 ` Tian, Kevin
2021-06-24 3:55 ` David Gibson
2021-06-02 8:56 ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-06-02 17:24 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-04 10:44 ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-06-04 12:30 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-06-08 1:15 ` David Gibson
2021-06-08 10:43 ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-06-08 13:11 ` Jason Gunthorpe
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=YL8Iam4+cog7oVDa@yekko \
--to=david@gibson.dropbear.id.au \
--cc=alex.williamson@redhat.com \
--cc=ashok.raj@intel.com \
--cc=corbet@lwn.net \
--cc=dave.jiang@intel.com \
--cc=dwmw2@infradead.org \
--cc=iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org \
--cc=jasowang@redhat.com \
--cc=jean-philippe@linaro.org \
--cc=jgg@nvidia.com \
--cc=kevin.tian@intel.com \
--cc=kvm@vger.kernel.org \
--cc=kwankhede@nvidia.com \
--cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
--cc=robin.murphy@arm.com \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).