From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.6 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIMWL_WL_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C050C433E3 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:25:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FA9206D4 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:25:23 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com header.i=@google.com header.b="eKiLu+oT" Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1729996AbgHDRZV (ORCPT ); Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:25:21 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:56286 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1729965AbgHDRZU (ORCPT ); Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:25:20 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-x241.google.com (mail-lj1-x241.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::241]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8233C061756 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x241.google.com with SMTP id t6so31551978ljk.9 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:25:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RXauyaNpJWaHWHUFoCmJEOgEHnWy8BHkyRckLun7378=; b=eKiLu+oT3PzUQxgwb0aeO+3QR6BelCNjEuogqKv3421diZZdImy3wzNi7b9sHkjJSh 3JIquL5IVeOz3Osv/rJJDfH3gHO6ozcpqIs4dwN6jGzXPIqcc3VbzjwVbU1xFRdrEFY5 9hhtcWl7RJSqwRORKZyEeufhZ/Cnu5+UNlwAlQqXb04A8zAN7mqgxtoYeJ4kUz8B2nKD p2HZtPXhvqNvpPOZBfQiq+S2S+YZqAyzr7fWvbvoSsQCRGhELPOVWa1Pt1ZbSJMM+G4m RmBvh9iw11Un5aRoH+SpgtB8Nii0AUmq33vKxf28+Occq5Tiqrvh0+Ji4A2edhQ44Wa5 MO+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RXauyaNpJWaHWHUFoCmJEOgEHnWy8BHkyRckLun7378=; b=a5RL+5squofhKsEnUBiG3ULNsHWPhuEf11YXaVupcZhoy+4QssfQVpeVTUuO43RdFP zpFRoDGbexjajDNuLMPToNiBaNytAc5ea7+iin+Sq91y/cg3hzcD8sE4/C3Og8Mn6l8P UUZjatYtFQ2UrKcWIkogiCcn8DH2vPY/mliPtcH6Cq4JL8oT5/vXACYgqyAm9P7mgzR7 BEQxT0/eCtvBQ99DcPxe+A3Rg/ulYLEIQtwVlSrRkX8O+3IHigvNUgnN4s52Z+uCmFcs E5F7vbj+1btDS0DDThPVng8cwi+AIntxds4rzKORnjT1iH0hijtbOB/mlGrOu3FRHQ4e 6+Bw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Yx1C9L7XMC3uSKNEAlYynGzzecZYpxJcv9BukpZQR2g4Uop5E D85BTsNiatvV7eghq/vJTZoPzaOpd5wk2Sux8Nd+uA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwC0ySOJJPqlRyJdn37WyyeeRdp8xWy9btQxYVtSBnHFw9HIk87PImZ4eVPHdT6uZIWpmmUFvUVuJuoj9xeUq8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:6804:: with SMTP id c4mr3166135lja.216.1596561916899; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:25:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <88273c2f-ce21-db54-688d-5bebd4a81ecd@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: From: enh Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:25:05 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH] Replacing "master-slave" terminology for pseudoterminals To: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" Cc: "Carlos O'Donell" , "libc-alpha@sourceware.org" , linux-man , Zack Weinberg , Florian Weimer , Paul Eggert , Joseph Myers , Linux API Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Sender: linux-man-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:48 AM Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > > Hi Elliot, > > On 7/30/20 10:35 PM, enh wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 4:38 AM Carlos O'Donell wrote: > >> > >> On 7/30/20 5:16 AM, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > >>> I know what you mean. One reason for that verbosity is the need to > >>> clearly distinguish "pseudoterminal device/end" from "pseudoterminal > >>> device pair". It's hard to avoid being wordy there. > >> > >> The perfect is the enemy of the good. My feeling is that as others > >> write this text in emails or discussions, we'll eventually all settle > >> on some other short form we find agreeable and then later we can adjust > >> the man pages to use that. > > > > based on my own brief experience, i'm expecting that _code_ will > > settle on pty and tty. but if you're reading the man pages to > > understand the concepts -- which are inherently quite confusing -- i > > think spelling things out in longhand might remain useful in that > > context. > > > >> Until then taking the lead to change this > >> language is the correct way forward. > > > > yeah, definitely. > > > > i'd prefer for michael to go first -- since the bionic documentation > > is basically just a link to man7.org, and even without that he's the > > canonical source -- but i'm happy to go first and submit my change > > first if it helps us make progress :-) > > I'd prefer to take this a little slowly. I don't plan to merge the > changes just yet. I'm interested to get a bit more feedback first, > including from Zack. (I'm guessing Zack is on holiday or so, which > is why we've not heard from him.) Also, if we have rough consensus > on this change, I would like to raise it with the POSIX folk; it > would of course be great if there was a corresponding change in the > standard, so that we all (all UNIX) have a common set of reference > terms. the good news is that it came up at this week's austin group meeting... the bad news is that (afaik) none of us were there. i had been planning to suggest we try to join next week anyway, to avoid having this stall again. > Cheers, > > Michael > > > -- > Michael Kerrisk > Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ > Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/