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From: Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com>
To: Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Jiri Kosina <jikos@kernel.org>,
	Matthew Wilcox <willy@infradead.org>,
	Jann Horn <jannh@google.com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
	Michal Hocko <mhocko@suse.com>, Linux-MM <linux-mm@kvack.org>,
	kernel list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] mm/mincore: allow for making sys_mincore() privileged
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 12:47:28 +1100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20190111014728.GL27534@dastard> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CALCETrWxwaBUYMg=aLySJByMgXzuzV4gHS0n6O6Oet2Jm6SAbw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 09, 2019 at 09:26:41PM -0800, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> Since direct IO has been brought up, I have a question.  I've wondered
> for years why direct IO works the way it does.  If I were implementing
> it from scratch, my first inclination would be to use the page cache
> instead of fighting it.  To do a single-page direct read, I would look
> that page up in the page cache (i.e. i_pages these days).  If the page
> is there, I would do a normal buffered read.  If the page is not

Therein lies the problem. Copying data is prohibitively expensive,
and that's the primary reason for O_DIRECT existing.  i.e. O_DIRECT
is a low-overhead, zero-copy data movement interface.

The moment we switch from using CPU to dispatch IO to copying data,
performance goes down because we will be unable to keep storage
pipelines full.  IOWs, any rework of O_DIRECT that involves copying
data is a non-starter.

But let's bring this back to the issue at hand - observability of
page cache residency of file pages. If th epage is caceh resident,
then it will have a latency of copying that data out of the page
(i.e. very low latency). If the page is not resident, then it will
do IO and take much, much longer to complete. i.e. we have clear
timing differences between cachce hit and cache miss IO.  This is
exactly the timing information needed for observing page cache
residency.

We need to work out how to make page cache residency less
observable, not add new, near perfect observation mechanisms that
third parties can easily exploit...

Cheers,

Dave.
-- 
Dave Chinner
david@fromorbit.com

  parent reply	other threads:[~2019-01-11  1:47 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 215+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-01-05 17:27 [PATCH] mm/mincore: allow for making sys_mincore() privileged Jiri Kosina
2019-01-05 17:27 ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-05 19:14 ` Vlastimil Babka
2019-01-05 19:24   ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-05 19:24     ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-05 19:38     ` Vlastimil Babka
2019-01-08  9:14       ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2019-01-08 11:37         ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-08 11:37           ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-08 13:53           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2019-01-08 14:08             ` Kirill A. Shutemov
2019-01-05 19:44 ` kbuild test robot
2019-01-05 19:46 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 19:46   ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 20:12   ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-05 20:12     ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-05 20:17     ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 20:17       ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 20:43       ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-05 20:43         ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-05 21:54         ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 21:54           ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-06 11:33           ` Kevin Easton
2019-01-08  8:50           ` Kevin Easton
2019-01-18 14:23           ` Tejun Heo
2019-01-05 20:13   ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 20:13     ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 19:56 ` kbuild test robot
2019-01-05 22:54 ` Jann Horn
2019-01-05 22:54   ` Jann Horn
2019-01-05 23:05   ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 23:05     ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 23:16     ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 23:16       ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 23:28       ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 23:28         ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 23:39       ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-05 23:39         ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-06  0:11         ` Matthew Wilcox
2019-01-06  0:22           ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-06  0:22             ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-06  1:50             ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-06  1:50               ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-06 21:46               ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-06 21:46                 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-08  4:43                 ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-08 17:57                   ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-08 17:57                     ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-09  2:24                     ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-09  2:31                       ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-09  2:31                         ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-09  4:39                         ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-09 10:08                           ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-09 10:08                             ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-10  1:15                             ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-10  7:54                               ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-10  7:54                                 ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-09 18:25                           ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-09 18:25                             ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-10  0:44                             ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-10  1:18                               ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-10  1:18                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-10  5:26                                 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-01-10  5:26                                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-01-10 14:47                                   ` Matthew Wilcox
2019-01-10 21:44                                     ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-10 21:59                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-10 21:59                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-11  1:47                                   ` Dave Chinner [this message]
2019-01-10  7:03                                 ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-10 11:47                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-10 11:47                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-10 12:24                                     ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-10 12:24                                       ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-10 22:11                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-10 22:11                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-11  2:03                                         ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-11  2:18                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-11  2:18                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-11  4:04                                             ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-11  4:08                                               ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-01-11  7:20                                                 ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-11  7:08                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-11  7:08                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-11  7:36                                                 ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-11 16:26                                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-11 16:26                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-15 23:45                                                     ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-16  4:54                                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-16  4:54                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-16  5:49                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-16  5:49                                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-17  1:26                                                         ` Dave Chinner
2019-02-20 15:49                                                     ` Nicolai Stange
2019-01-11  4:57                                         ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-11  7:11                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-11  7:11                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-11  7:32                                             ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-16  0:42                                         ` Josh Snyder
2019-01-16  5:00                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-16  5:00                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-16  5:25                                             ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-01-16  5:34                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-16  5:34                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-16  5:46                                                 ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-16  5:58                                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-16  5:58                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-16  6:34                                                     ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-16  7:52                                                       ` Josh Snyder
2019-01-16  7:52                                                         ` Josh Snyder
2019-01-16 12:18                                                         ` Kevin Easton
2019-01-17 21:45                                                         ` Vlastimil Babka
2019-01-18  4:49                                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-18  4:49                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-18 18:58                                                             ` Vlastimil Babka
2019-01-16 16:12                                                     ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-16 16:12                                                       ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-16 17:48                                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-16 17:48                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-16 20:23                                                         ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-16 20:23                                                           ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-16 21:37                                                           ` Matthew Wilcox
2019-01-16 21:41                                                             ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-16 21:41                                                               ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-17  9:52                                                               ` Cyril Hrubis
2019-01-28 13:49                                                               ` Cyril Hrubis
2019-01-17  4:51                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-17  4:51                                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-18  4:54                                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-18  4:54                                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-17  1:49                                                           ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-23 20:27                                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-23 20:27                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-23 20:35                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-23 20:35                                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-23 23:12                                                               ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-23 23:12                                                                 ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-24  0:20                                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-24  0:20                                                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2019-01-24  0:24                                                             ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-24 12:45                                                               ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-24 14:25                                                                 ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-24 14:25                                                                   ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-27 22:35                                                                   ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-27 22:35                                                                     ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-28  0:05                                                                     ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-29 23:52                                                                       ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-30  9:09                                                                         ` Michal Hocko
2019-01-30 12:29                                                                           ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-16 12:36                                             ` Matthew Wilcox
2019-01-10 14:50                               ` Matthew Wilcox
2019-01-11  7:36                               ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-11  7:36                                 ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-17  2:22                                 ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-17  8:18                                   ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-17  8:18                                     ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-17 21:06                                     ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-07  4:32             ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-07 10:33               ` Vlastimil Babka
2019-01-07 11:08                 ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-07 11:59                   ` Vlastimil Babka
2019-01-07 13:29                   ` Daniel Gruss
2019-01-07 10:10         ` Michael Ellerman
2019-01-05 23:09   ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-05 23:09     ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-30 12:44 ` [PATCH 0/3] mincore() and IOCB_NOWAIT adjustments Vlastimil Babka
2019-01-30 12:44   ` [PATCH 1/3] mm/mincore: make mincore() more conservative Vlastimil Babka
2019-01-31  9:43     ` Michal Hocko
2019-01-31  9:51       ` Dominique Martinet
2019-01-31 17:46       ` Josh Snyder
2019-02-01  8:56     ` Vlastimil Babka
2019-03-06 23:13     ` Andrew Morton
2019-03-07  0:01       ` Jiri Kosina
2019-03-07  0:40         ` Dominique Martinet
2019-03-07  5:46           ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-30 12:44   ` [PATCH 2/3] mm/filemap: initiate readahead even if IOCB_NOWAIT is set for the I/O Vlastimil Babka
2019-01-30 15:04     ` Florian Weimer
2019-01-30 15:15       ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-31 10:47         ` Florian Weimer
2019-01-31 11:34           ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-31  9:56     ` Michal Hocko
2019-01-31 10:15       ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-31 10:23         ` Michal Hocko
2019-01-31 10:30           ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-31 11:32             ` Michal Hocko
2019-01-31 17:54           ` Linus Torvalds
2019-02-01  5:13             ` Dave Chinner
2019-02-01  7:05               ` Linus Torvalds
2019-02-01  7:21                 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-02-01  1:44       ` Dave Chinner
2019-02-12 15:48         ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-31 12:04     ` Daniel Gruss
2019-01-31 12:06       ` Vlastimil Babka
2019-01-31 12:08       ` Jiri Kosina
2019-01-31 12:57         ` Daniel Gruss
2019-01-30 12:44   ` [PATCH 3/3] mm/mincore: provide mapped status when cached status is not allowed Vlastimil Babka
2019-01-31 10:09     ` Michal Hocko
2019-02-01  9:04       ` Vlastimil Babka
2019-02-01  9:11         ` Michal Hocko
2019-02-01  9:27           ` Vlastimil Babka
2019-02-06 20:14             ` Jiri Kosina
2019-02-12  3:44         ` Jiri Kosina
2019-02-12  6:36           ` Michal Hocko
2019-02-12 13:09             ` Jiri Kosina
2019-02-12 14:01               ` Michal Hocko
2019-03-06 12:11   ` [PATCH 0/3] mincore() and IOCB_NOWAIT adjustments Jiri Kosina
2019-03-06 22:35     ` Andrew Morton
2019-03-06 22:48       ` Jiri Kosina
2019-03-06 23:23         ` Andrew Morton
2019-03-06 23:32           ` Dominique Martinet
2019-03-06 23:38             ` Andrew Morton
2019-03-09 16:53               ` Linus Torvalds
2019-03-12 14:17   ` [PATCH v2 0/2] prevent mincore() page cache leaks Vlastimil Babka
2019-03-12 14:17     ` [PATCH v2 1/2] mm/mincore: make mincore() more conservative Vlastimil Babka
2019-03-12 14:17     ` [PATCH v2 2/2] mm/mincore: provide mapped status when cached status is not allowed Vlastimil Babka

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