Re: [PATCH 5/5] nvme: support for zoned namespaces

["Matias Bjørling" <mb@lightnvm.io>]

On 16/06/2020 18.21, Javier González wrote:
> On 16.06.2020 16:07, Matias Bjorling wrote:
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Javier González <javier@javigon.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, 16 June 2020 18.03
>>> To: Matias Bjørling <mb@lightnvm.io>
>>> Cc: Damien Le Moal <Damien.LeMoal@wdc.com>; Jens Axboe
>>> <axboe@kernel.dk>; Niklas Cassel <Niklas.Cassel@wdc.com>; Ajay Joshi
>>> <Ajay.Joshi@wdc.com>; Sagi Grimberg <sagi@grimberg.me>; Keith Busch
>>> <Keith.Busch@wdc.com>; Dmitry Fomichev <Dmitry.Fomichev@wdc.com>;
>>> Aravind Ramesh <Aravind.Ramesh@wdc.com>; linux-
>>> nvme@lists.infradead.org; linux-block@vger.kernel.org; Hans Holmberg
>>> <Hans.Holmberg@wdc.com>; Christoph Hellwig <hch@lst.de>; Matias 
>>> Bjorling
>>> <Matias.Bjorling@wdc.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 5/5] nvme: support for zoned namespaces
>>>
>>> On 16.06.2020 17:20, Matias Bjørling wrote:
>>> >On 16/06/2020 17.02, Javier González wrote:
>>> >>On 16.06.2020 14:42, Damien Le Moal wrote:
>>> >>>On 2020/06/16 23:16, Javier González wrote:
>>> >>>>On 16.06.2020 12:35, Damien Le Moal wrote:
>>> >>>>>On 2020/06/16 21:24, Javier González wrote:
>>> >>>>>>On 16.06.2020 14:06, Matias Bjørling wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>On 16/06/2020 14.00, Javier González wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>On 16.06.2020 13:18, Matias Bjørling wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>On 16/06/2020 12.41, Javier González wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>>On 16.06.2020 08:34, Keith Busch wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Add support for NVM Express Zoned Namespaces (ZNS)
>>> Command
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Set defined in NVM Express TP4053. Zoned namespaces are
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>discovered based on their Command Set Identifier reported in
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>the namespaces Namespace Identification Descriptor list. A
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>successfully discovered Zoned Namespace will be registered
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>with the block layer as a host managed zoned block device
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>with Zone Append command support. A namespace that does not
>>> >>>>>>>>>>>support append is not supported by the driver.
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>Why are we enforcing the append command? Append is optional
>>> on
>>> >>>>>>>>>>the current ZNS specification, so we should not make this
>>> >>>>>>>>>>mandatory in the implementation. See specifics below.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>There is already general support in the kernel for the zone
>>> >>>>>>>>>append command. Feel free to submit patches to emulate the
>>> >>>>>>>>>support. It is outside the scope of this patchset.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>It is fine that the kernel supports append, but the ZNS
>>> >>>>>>>>specification does not impose the implementation for append, so
>>> >>>>>>>>the driver should not do that either.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>ZNS SSDs that choose to leave append as a non-implemented
>>> >>>>>>>>optional command should not rely on emulated SW support,
>>> >>>>>>>>specially when traditional writes work very fine for a large
>>> >>>>>>>>part of current ZNS use cases.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>Please, remove this virtual constraint.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>The Zone Append command is mandatory for zoned block devices.
>>> >>>>>>>Please see https://lwn.net/Articles/818709/ for the background.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>I do not see anywhere in the block layer that append is mandatory
>>> >>>>>>for zoned devices. Append is emulated on ZBC, but beyond that
>>> >>>>>>there is no mandatory bits. Please explain.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>This is to allow a single write IO path for all types of zoned
>>> >>>>>block device for higher layers, e.g file systems. The on-going
>>> >>>>>re-work of btrfs zone support for instance now relies 100% on zone
>>> >>>>>append being supported. That significantly simplifies the file
>>> >>>>>system support and more importantly remove the need for locking
>>> >>>>>around block allocation and BIO issuing, allowing to preserve a
>>> >>>>>fully asynchronous write path that can include workqueues for
>>> >>>>>efficient CPU usage of things like encryption and compression.
>>> >>>>>Without zone append, file system would either (1) have to reject
>>> >>>>>these drives that do not support zone append, or (2) implement 2
>>> >>>>>different write IO path (slower regular write and zone append).
>>> >>>>>None of these options are ideal, to say the least.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>So the approach is: mandate zone append support for ZNS 
>>> devices. To
>>> >>>>>allow other ZNS drives, an emulation similar to SCSI can be
>>> >>>>>implemented, with that emulation ideally combined to work for both
>>> >>>>>types of drives if possible.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>Enforcing QD=1 becomes a problem on devices with large zones. In a
>>> >>>>ZNS device that has smaller zones this should not be a problem.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>Let's be precise: this is not running the drive at QD=1, it is "at
>>> >>>most one write *request* per zone". If the FS is simultaneously 
>>> using
>>> >>>multiple block groups mapped to different zones, you will get a 
>>> total
>>> >>>write QD > 1, and as many reads as you want.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>Would you agree that it is possible to have a write path that 
>>> relies
>>> >>>>on QD=1, where the FS / application has the responsibility for
>>> >>>>enforcing this? Down the road this QD can be increased if the 
>>> device
>>> >>>>is able to buffer the writes.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>Doing QD=1 per zone for writes at the FS layer, that is, at the BIO
>>> >>>layer does not work. This is because BIOs can be as large as the FS
>>> >>>wants them to be. Such large BIO will be split into multiple 
>>> requests
>>> >>>in the block layer, resulting in more than one write per zone. That
>>> >>>is why the zone write locking is at the scheduler level, between BIO
>>> >>>split and request dispatch. That avoids the multiple requests
>>> >>>fragments of a large BIO to be reordered and fail. That is mandatory
>>> >>>as the block layer itself can occasionally reorder requests and 
>>> lower
>>> >>>levels such as AHCI HW is also notoriously good at reversing
>>> >>>sequential requests. For NVMe with multi-queue, the IO issuing
>>> >>>process getting rescheduled on a different CPU can result in
>>> >>>sequential IOs being in different queues, with the likely result of
>>> >>>an out-of-order execution. All cases are avoided with zone write
>>> >>>locking and at most one write request dispatch per zone as
>>> >>>recommended by the ZNS specifications (ZBC and ZAC standards for SMR
>>> >>>HDDs are silent on this).
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>I understand. I agree that the current FSs supporting ZNS follow this
>>> >>approach and it makes sense that there is a common interface that
>>> >>simplifies the FS implementation. See the comment below on the part I
>>> >>believe we see things differently.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>>>I would be OK with some FS implementations to rely on append and
>>> >>>>impose the constraint that append has to be supported (and it would
>>> >>>>be our job to change that), but I would like to avoid the driver
>>> >>>>rejecting initializing the device because current FS 
>>> implementations
>>> >>>>have implemented this logic.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>What is the difference between the driver rejecting drives and 
>>> the FS
>>> >>>rejecting the same drives ? That has the same end result to me: an
>>> >>>entire class of devices cannot be used as desired by the user.
>>> >>>Implementing zone append emulation avoids the rejection entirely
>>> >>>while still allowing the FS to have a single write IO path, thus
>>> >>>simplifying the code.
>>> >>
>>> >>The difference is that users that use a raw ZNS device submitting I/O
>>> >>through the kernel would still be able to use these devices. The
>>> >>result would be that the ZNS SSD is recognized and initialized, but
>>> >>the FS format fails.
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>We can agree that a number of initial customers will use these
>>> >>>>devices raw, using the in-kernel I/O path, but without a FS on top.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>Thoughts?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>>and note that
>>> >>>>>this emulation would require the drive to be operated with
>>> >>>>>mq-deadline to enable zone write locking for preserving write
>>> >>>>>command order. While on a HDD the performance penalty is minimal,
>>> >>>>>it will likely be significant on a SSD.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>Exactly my concern. I do not want ZNS SSDs to be impacted by this
>>> >>>>type of design decision at the driver level.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>But your proposed FS level approach would end up doing the exact 
>>> same
>>> >>>thing with the same limitation and so the same potential performance
>>> >>>impact.
>>> >>>The block
>>> >>>layer generic approach has the advantage that we do not bother the
>>> >>>higher levels with the implementation of in-order request dispatch
>>> >>>guarantees.
>>> >>>File systems
>>> >>>are complex enough. The less complexity is required for zone 
>>> support,
>>> >>>the better.
>>> >>
>>> >>This depends very much on how the FS / application is managing
>>> >>stripping. At the moment our main use case is enabling user-space
>>> >>applications submitting I/Os to raw ZNS devices through the kernel.
>>> >>
>>> >>Can we enable this use case to start with?
>>> >
>>> >It is free for everyone to load kernel modules into the kernel. Those
>>> >modules may not have the appropriate checks or may rely on the zone
>>> >append functionality. Having per use-case limit is a no-go and at best
>>> >a game of whack-a-mole.
>>>
>>> Let's focus on mainline support. We are leaving append as not 
>>> enabled based
>>> on customer requests for some ZNS products and would like this 
>>> devices to be
>>> supported. This is not at all a corner use-case but a very general one.
>>>
>>> >
>>> >You already agreed to create a set of patches to add the appropriate
>>> >support for emulating zone append. As these would fix your specific
>>> >issue, please go ahead and submit those.
>>>
>>> I agreed to solve the use case that some of our customers are 
>>> enabling and this
>>> is what I am doing.
>>>
>>> Again, to start with I would like to have a path where ZNS 
>>> namespaces are
>>> identified independently of append support. Then specific users can 
>>> require
>>> append if they please to do so. We will of course take care of 
>>> sending patches
>>> for this.
>>
>> As was previously said, there are users in the kernel that depends on
>> zone append. As a result, it is not an option not to have this. Please
>> go ahead and send the patches and you'll have the behavior you are
>> seeking.
>>
>
> Never put in doubt that we are the ones implementing support for this,
> but since you keep asking, I want to make it clear that not using append
> command is a very general use case for ZNS adopters.
>
I am not asking. I am confirming that this is orthogonal to _this_ 
specific patchset. This discussion can continue in the potential patches 
that you plan.



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