From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.3 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,NICE_REPLY_A,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04175C433E0 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:49:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD08B64E74 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:49:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S230015AbhCSNsa (ORCPT ); Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:48:30 -0400 Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.135]:39233 "EHLO mout.kundenserver.de" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S229956AbhCSNsW (ORCPT ); Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:48:22 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.155] ([95.114.29.199]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mzydy-1lZqeJ1yGE-00x5Wc; Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:48:13 +0100 Subject: Re: [PATCH 4/4] PCI/sysfs: Allow userspace to query and set device reset mechanism To: Leon Romanovsky , "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" Cc: Alex Williamson , Amey Narkhede , raphael.norwitz@nutanix.com, linux-pci@vger.kernel.org, bhelgaas@google.com, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, alay.shah@nutanix.com, suresh.gumpula@nutanix.com, shyam.rajendran@nutanix.com, felipe@nutanix.com References: <20210317112309.nborigwfd26px2mj@archlinux> <20210317131718.3uz7zxnvoofpunng@archlinux> <20210317113140.3de56d6c@omen.home.shazbot.org> <20210318103935.2ec32302@omen.home.shazbot.org> From: "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" Message-ID: <27aedf13-9c08-0ac7-e6ef-a027913c288a@metux.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:48:12 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: tl Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:YuQY/oPIl1gjw5CVFKYwndq+QPlRq6cXN5N0R+s6dC6fCrlwTIP Sd/uA36LCSxAzGcyfWlWDY4BQtmhtHLy4FLt/X9MoKZccpch5LSkP3tp4uDuxP3H6iw2l+D Gx2gdR/ndHfQ2H0niyRZcgkABPpxME47a5Qc4OCKq8Yze3CIhCKet1LiBfeO3JHOZUu/Ybl FfB/H/OWZcYOpAZkBZGMQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:iSB6CUCeqYg=:wdzZZxPh/GwsMbZS5KydnJ hmY2rEuGblfg+iMdwRd6+CJGxwCfmKAUaTUgbP0VoiVdEUda8hdPHOYRlCXXFtIaX7wjG0mnf 0g3eCKU6Z315GY+F0qMriF6pjnywyehYtPr9syKebDXPzin4gSZRzhN0wUjHTUJDqy2hkL/pV 1odCHqKXDl8rEm3SvB6erRRwuvia5N/dfLKcHL38vyLgEqEx8qoZsYrn2FUAkpag0ovr3W06g 5J3v6NSpyKWdXskDG+qn2o0jydB6/zoBtWuKppoD/MOCTHmGCKBB7aYPA4YlA55EQlppr2LTN /KUWdyttys5FEgwFULPb8MUkDQb8Ro9peMuzlk5DDKVBc6yxJnISYd9NCpxoA2YnfQBAZ+g10 5OUM1jICSis9wo+o59YnC5Z2ynxEtU2APkcWMs328xCCxXYMv8aXiu1elC3/T Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-pci@vger.kernel.org On 19.03.21 13:59, Leon Romanovsky wrote: >> I really doubt we can influence that by any technical decision here in >> the kernel. > > There are subsystems that succeeded to do it, for example netdev, RDMA e.t.c. I'd guess either hi-end / server or embedded products - already mentioned that these are different fields. I've been talking about the average consumer products. OTOH, there're also very expensive vendors that are exceptionally bad, eg. National instruments (who even are capable of breaking rpm so badly with their proprietary packages that they open up 0day holes - i once filed a report @FD on such a case). >> IMHO, the expensive ones don't care either. >> >> Does eg. Dell publish board schematics ? Do they even publish exact part >> lists (exact chipsets) along with their brochures, so customers can >> check wether their HW is supported, before buying and trying out ? > > They do it because they are allowed to do it and not because they > explicitly want to annoyance their customers. Yes, they're just ignorant. They can still do that, because buy their pretty expensive cheap-hardware. And that's mostly driven by purchase people inside the customer organisations, who just don't care how much damage they do to their own employers, by dictating purchase of expensive broken-by-design hardware. ... but that's nothing we here have any influence on - except for dissuasion and purchase boycott ... In any case, I still fail to see why giving operators an debug knob should make anything worse. >> [ And often, even a combination of them isn't enough. Did you know that >> even Google doesn't get all specs necessary to replace away the ugly >> FSP blob ? (it's the same w/ AMD, but meanwhile I'm pissed enought to >> reverse engineer their AGESA blob). ] > > I don't know about this specific Google case, but from my previous experience. > The reasons why vendor says no to Google are usually due to licensing and legal > issues and not open source vs. proprietary. In short words: Google did (still does?) build their own mainboards and FW (IIRC that's where LinuxBoot came from), but even with their HUGE quantities (they buy cpus in quantities of truck loads) they still did not manage to get any specs for writing their own early init w/o the proprietary FSP. The licensing / legal issues can either be: a) we, the mightly Intel Corp., have been so extremly stupid for licensing some vital IP stuff (what exactly could that be, in exactly the prime domain of Intel ?) and signing such insane crontracts, that we're not allowed to tell anybody how to actually use our own products (yes: initializing the CPU and built-in interfaces belongs exactly into that category) b) we, the mighty Intel Corp., couldn't build something on our own, but just stolen IP (in our primary domain) and are scared that anybody could find out from just reading some early setup code. c) we, the mighty Intel Corp., rule the world and we give a phrack on what some tiny Customers like Google want from us. d) we, the mightly Intel Corp., did do what our name tells: INTEL, and we don't want anybody raise unpleasant questions. choose your poison :P --mtx -- --- Hinweis: unverschlüsselte E-Mails können leicht abgehört und manipuliert werden ! Für eine vertrauliche Kommunikation senden Sie bitte ihren GPG/PGP-Schlüssel zu. --- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult Free software and Linux embedded engineering info@metux.net -- +49-151-27565287