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From: Jakub Kicinski <jakub.kicinski@netronome.com>
To: Jason Gunthorpe <jgg@ziepe.ca>
Cc: Parav Pandit <parav@mellanox.com>, Jiri Pirko <jiri@resnulli.us>,
	David M <david.m.ertman@intel.com>,
	"gregkh@linuxfoundation.org" <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
	"alex.williamson@redhat.com" <alex.williamson@redhat.com>,
	"davem@davemloft.net" <davem@davemloft.net>,
	"kvm@vger.kernel.org" <kvm@vger.kernel.org>,
	"netdev@vger.kernel.org" <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
	Saeed Mahameed <saeedm@mellanox.com>,
	"kwankhede@nvidia.com" <kwankhede@nvidia.com>,
	"leon@kernel.org" <leon@kernel.org>,
	"cohuck@redhat.com" <cohuck@redhat.com>,
	Jiri Pirko <jiri@mellanox.com>,
	"linux-rdma@vger.kernel.org" <linux-rdma@vger.kernel.org>,
	Or Gerlitz <gerlitz.or@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next 00/19] Mellanox, mlx5 sub function support
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 09:27:47 -0800
Message-ID: <20191109092747.26a1a37e@cakuba> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20191109004426.GB31761@ziepe.ca>

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 20:44:26 -0400, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 08, 2019 at 01:45:59PM -0800, Jakub Kicinski wrote:
> > Yes, my suggestion to use mdev was entirely based on the premise that
> > the purpose of this work is to get vfio working.. otherwise I'm unclear
> > as to why we'd need a bus in the first place. If this is just for
> > containers - we have macvlan offload for years now, with no need for a
> > separate device.  
> 
> This SF thing is a full fledged VF function, it is not at all like
> macvlan. This is perhaps less important for the netdev part of the
> world, but the difference is very big for the RDMA side, and should
> enable VFIO too..

Well, macvlan used VMDq so it was pretty much a "legacy SR-IOV" VF.
I'd perhaps need to learn more about RDMA to appreciate the difference.

> > On the RDMA/Intel front, would you mind explaining what the main
> > motivation for the special buses is? I'm a little confurious.  
> 
> Well, the issue is driver binding. For years we have had these
> multi-function netdev drivers that have a single PCI device which must
> bind into multiple subsystems, ie mlx5 does netdev and RDMA, the cxgb
> drivers do netdev, RDMA, SCSI initiator, SCSI target, etc. [And I
> expect when NVMe over TCP rolls out we will have drivers like cxgb4
> binding to 6 subsytems in total!]

What I'm missing is why is it so bad to have a driver register to
multiple subsystems.

I've seen no end of hacks caused people trying to split their driver
too deeply by functionality. Separate sub-drivers, buses and modules.

The nfp driver was split up before I upstreamed it, I merged it into
one monolithic driver/module. Code is still split up cleanly internally,
the architecture doesn't change in any major way. Sure 5% of developers
were upset they can't do some partial reloads they were used to, but
they got used to the new ways, and 100% of users were happy about the
simplicity.

For the nfp I think the _real_ reason to have a bus was that it
was expected to have some out-of-tree modules bind to it. Something 
I would not encourage :)

Maybe RDMA and storage have some requirements where the reload of the
part of the driver is important, IDK..

> > My understanding is MFD was created to help with cases where single
> > device has multiple pieces of common IP in it.   
> 
> MFD really seems to be good at splitting a device when the HW is
> orthogonal at the register level. Ie you might have regs 100-200 for
> ethernet and 200-300 for RDMA.
> 
> But this is not how modern HW works, the functional division is more
> subtle and more software based. ie on most devices a netdev and rdma
> queue are nearly the same, just a few settings make them function
> differently.
> 
> So what is needed isn't a split of register set like MFD specializes
> in, but a unique per-driver API between the 'core' and 'subsystem'
> parts of the multi-subsystem device.

Exactly, because the device is one. For my simplistic brain one device
means one driver, which can register to as many subsystems as it wants.

> > Do modern RDMA cards really share IP across generations?   
> 
> What is a generation? Mellanox has had a stable RDMA driver across
> many sillicon generations. Intel looks like their new driver will
> support at least the last two or more sillicon generations..
> 
> RDMA drivers are monstrous complex things, there is a big incentive to
> not respin them every time a new chip comes out.

Ack, but then again none of the drivers gets rewritten from scratch,
right? It's not that some "sub-drivers" get reused and some not, no?

> > Is there a need to reload the drivers for the separate pieces (I
> > wonder if the devlink reload doesn't belong to the device model :().  
> 
> Yes, it is already done, but without driver model support the only way
> to reload the rdma driver is to unload the entire module as there is
> no 'unbind'

The reload is the only thing that I can think of (other than
out-of-tree code), but with devlink no I believe it can be solved
differently.

Thanks a lot for the explanation Jason, much appreciated!

The practicality of this is still a little elusive to me, but since 
Greg seems on board I guess it's just me :)

  parent reply index

Thread overview: 131+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-11-07 16:04 Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08 ` [PATCH net-next 01/19] net/mlx5: E-switch, Move devlink port close to eswitch port Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 02/19] net/mlx5: E-Switch, Add SF vport, vport-rep support Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 03/19] net/mlx5: Introduce SF table framework Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 04/19] net/mlx5: Introduce SF life cycle APIs to allocate/free Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 05/19] net/mlx5: E-Switch, Enable/disable SF's vport during SF life cycle Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 06/19] net/mlx5: Add support for mediated devices in switchdev mode Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 10:32     ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 16:03       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 16:22         ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 16:29           ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 18:01             ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 18:04             ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 18:21               ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 07/19] vfio/mdev: Introduce sha1 based mdev alias Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 11:04     ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 15:59       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 16:28         ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 11:10     ` Cornelia Huck
2019-11-08 16:03       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 08/19] vfio/mdev: Make mdev alias unique among all mdevs Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 10:49     ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 15:13       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 09/19] vfio/mdev: Expose mdev alias in sysfs tree Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 13:22     ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 18:03       ` Alex Williamson
2019-11-08 18:16         ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 10/19] vfio/mdev: Introduce an API mdev_alias Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 11/19] vfio/mdev: Improvise mdev life cycle and parent removal scheme Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 13:01     ` Cornelia Huck
2019-11-08 16:12       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 12/19] devlink: Introduce mdev port flavour Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 20:38     ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-07 21:03       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08  1:17         ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-08  1:44           ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08  2:20             ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-08  2:31               ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08  9:46                 ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 15:45                   ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 16:31                     ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 16:43                       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 18:11                         ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 18:23                           ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 18:34                             ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 18:56                               ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08  9:30               ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 15:41                 ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 13/19] net/mlx5: Register SF devlink port Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 14/19] net/mlx5: Share irqs between SFs and parent PCI device Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 15/19] net/mlx5: Add load/unload routines for SF driver binding Parav Pandit
2019-11-08  9:48     ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 11:13       ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 16/19] net/mlx5: Implement dma ops and params for mediated device Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 20:42     ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-07 21:30       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08  1:16         ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-08  6:37     ` Christoph Hellwig
2019-11-08 15:29       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 17/19] net/mlx5: Add mdev driver to bind to mdev devices Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 18/19] Documentation: net: mlx5: Add mdev usage documentation Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 16:08   ` [PATCH net-next 19/19] mtty: Optionally support mtty alias Parav Pandit
2019-11-08  6:26     ` Leon Romanovsky
2019-11-08 10:45     ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 15:08       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 15:15         ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 13:46     ` Cornelia Huck
2019-11-08 15:10       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 15:28         ` Cornelia Huck
2019-11-08 15:30           ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 17:54             ` Alex Williamson
2019-11-08  9:51   ` [PATCH net-next 01/19] net/mlx5: E-switch, Move devlink port close to eswitch port Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 15:50     ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 17:03 ` [PATCH net-next 00/19] Mellanox, mlx5 sub function support Leon Romanovsky
2019-11-07 20:10   ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08  6:20     ` Leon Romanovsky
2019-11-08 15:01       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-07 20:32 ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-07 20:52   ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08  1:16     ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-08  1:49       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08  2:12         ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-08 12:12   ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 14:40     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2019-11-08 15:40       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 19:12         ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-08 20:12           ` Jason Gunthorpe
2019-11-08 20:20             ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 20:32               ` Jason Gunthorpe
2019-11-08 20:52                 ` gregkh
2019-11-08 20:34             ` Alex Williamson
2019-11-08 21:05               ` Jason Gunthorpe
2019-11-08 21:19                 ` gregkh
2019-11-08 21:52                 ` Alex Williamson
2019-11-08 22:48                   ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-09  0:57                     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2019-11-09 17:41                       ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-10 19:04                         ` Jason Gunthorpe
2019-11-10 19:48                       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-11 14:17                         ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-11 14:58                           ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-11 15:06                             ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-09  0:12                   ` Jason Gunthorpe
2019-11-09  0:45                     ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-11  2:19                 ` Jason Wang
2019-11-08 21:45             ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-09  0:44               ` Jason Gunthorpe
2019-11-09  8:46                 ` gregkh
2019-11-09 11:18                   ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-09 17:28                     ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-10  9:16                     ` gregkh
2019-11-09 17:27                 ` Jakub Kicinski [this message]
2019-11-10  9:18                   ` gregkh
2019-11-11  3:46                     ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-11  5:18                       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-11 13:30                       ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-11 14:14                         ` gregkh
2019-11-11 14:37                           ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-10 19:37                   ` Jason Gunthorpe
2019-11-11  3:57                     ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-08 16:06     ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 19:06     ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-08 19:34       ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 19:48         ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-08 19:41       ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 20:40         ` Parav Pandit
2019-11-08 21:21         ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-08 21:39           ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-08 21:51             ` Jakub Kicinski
2019-11-08 22:21               ` Jiri Pirko
2019-11-07 23:57 ` David Miller

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