Linux-Security-Module Archive on lore.kernel.org
 help / color / Atom feed
From: Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>
To: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
Cc: Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>,
	Song Liu <songliubraving@fb.com>,
	Networking <netdev@vger.kernel.org>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	Kernel Team <Kernel-team@fb.com>,
	Lorenz Bauer <lmb@cloudflare.com>, Jann Horn <jannh@google.com>,
	Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
	Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
	LSM List <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 bpf-next 1/4] bpf: unprivileged BPF access via /dev/bpf
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 12:46:41 -0700
Message-ID: <201908151203.FE87970@keescook> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20190813215823.3sfbakzzjjykyng2@ast-mbp>

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 02:58:25PM -0700, Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
> agree that containers (namespaces) reduce amount of trust necessary
> for apps to run, but the end goal is not security though.

Unsurprisingly, I totally disagree: this is the very definition of
improved "security": reduced attack surface, confined trust, etc.

> Linux has become a single user system.

I hope this is just hyperbole, because it's not true in reality. I agree
that the vast majority of Linux devices are single-user-at-a-time
systems now (rather than the "shell servers" of yore), but the system
still has to be expected to confine users from each other, root, and the
hardware. Switching users on Chrome OS or a distro laptop, etc is still
very much expected to _mean_ something.

> If user can ssh into the host they can become root.
> If arbitrary code can run on the host it will be break out of any sandbox.
> Containers are not providing the level of security that is enough
> to run arbitrary code. VMs can do it better, but cpu bugs don't make it easy.

I'm not sure why you draw the line for VMs -- they're just as buggy
as anything else. Regardless, I reject this line of thinking: yes,
all software is buggy, but that isn't a reason to give up. In fact,
we should be trying very hard to create safe code (*insert arguments
for sane languages and toolchains here*).

If you look at software safety as a binary, you will always be
disappointed. If you look at it as it manifests in the real world,
then there is some perspective to be had. Reachability of flaws becomes
a major factor; exploit chain length becomes a factor. There are very
real impacts to be had from security hardening, sandboxing, etc. Of
course nothing is perfect, but the current state of the world isn't
as you describe. (And I say this with the knowledge of how long
the lifetime of bugs are in the kernel.)

> Containers are used to make production systems safer.

Yes.

> Some people call it more 'secure', but it's clearly not secure for
> arbitrary code

Perhaps it's just a language issue. "More secure" and "safer" mean
mostly the same thing to me. I tend to think "safer" is actually
a superset that includes things that wreck the user experience but
aren't actually in the privilege manipulation realm. In the traditional
"security" triad of confidentiality, integrity, and availability, I tend
to weigh availability less highly, but a bug that stops someone from
doing their work but doesn't wreck data, let them switch users, etc,
is still considered a "security" issue by many folks. The fewer bugs
someone is exposed to improves their security, safety, whatever. The
easiest way to do that is confinement and its associated attack surface
reduction. tl;dr: security and safety are very use-case-specific
continuum, not a binary state.

> When we say 'unprivileged bpf' we really mean arbitrary malicious bpf program.
> It's been a constant source of pain. The constant blinding, randomization,
> verifier speculative analysis, all spectre v1, v2, v4 mitigations
> are simply not worth it. It's a lot of complex kernel code without users.
> There is not a single use case to allow arbitrary malicious bpf
> program to be loaded and executed.

The world isn't binary (safe code/malicious code), and we need to build
systems that can be used safely even when things go wrong. Yes, probably
no one has a system that _intentionally_ feeds eBPF into the kernel from
a web form. But there is probably someone who does it unintentionally,
or has a user login exposed on a system where unpriv BPF is enabled. The
point is to create primitives as safely as possible so when things DO
go wrong, they fail safe instead of making things worse.

I'm all for a "less privileged than root" API for eBPF, but I get worried
when I see "security" being treated as a binary state. Especially when
it is considered an always-failed state. :)

-- 
Kees Cook

  parent reply index

Thread overview: 61+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <20190627201923.2589391-1-songliubraving@fb.com>
     [not found] ` <20190627201923.2589391-2-songliubraving@fb.com>
     [not found]   ` <21894f45-70d8-dfca-8c02-044f776c5e05@kernel.org>
     [not found]     ` <3C595328-3ABE-4421-9772-8D41094A4F57@fb.com>
     [not found]       ` <CALCETrWBnH4Q43POU8cQ7YMjb9LioK28FDEQf7aHZbdf1eBZWg@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]         ` <0DE7F23E-9CD2-4F03-82B5-835506B59056@fb.com>
     [not found]           ` <CALCETrWBWbNFJvsTCeUchu3BZJ3SH3dvtXLUB2EhnPrzFfsLNA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]             ` <201907021115.DCD56BBABB@keescook>
     [not found]               ` <CALCETrXTta26CTtEDnzvtd03-WOGdXcnsAogP8JjLkcj4-mHvg@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                 ` <4A7A225A-6C23-4C0F-9A95-7C6C56B281ED@fb.com>
     [not found]                   ` <CALCETrX2bMnwC6_t4b_G-hzJSfMPrkK4YKs5ebcecv2LJ0rt3w@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                     ` <514D5453-0AEE-420F-AEB6-3F4F58C62E7E@fb.com>
     [not found]                       ` <1DE886F3-3982-45DE-B545-67AD6A4871AB@amacapital.net>
     [not found]                         ` <7F51F8B8-CF4C-4D82-AAE1-F0F28951DB7F@fb.com>
     [not found]                           ` <77354A95-4107-41A7-8936-D144F01C3CA4@fb.com>
     [not found]                             ` <369476A8-4CE1-43DA-9239-06437C0384C7@fb.com>
2019-07-30 20:24                               ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-07-31  8:10                                 ` Song Liu
2019-07-31 19:09                                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-02  7:21                                     ` Song Liu
2019-08-04 22:16                                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05  0:08                                         ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05  5:47                                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05  7:36                                             ` Song Liu
2019-08-05 17:23                                               ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05 19:21                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-05 21:25                                                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-05 22:21                                                     ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-06  1:11                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-07  5:24                                                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-07  9:03                                                         ` Lorenz Bauer
2019-08-07 13:52                                                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-13 21:58                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-13 22:26                                                           ` Daniel Colascione
2019-08-13 23:24                                                             ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-13 23:06                                                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-14  0:57                                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-14 17:51                                                               ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-14 22:05                                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-14 22:30                                                                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-14 23:33                                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-14 23:59                                                                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-15  0:36                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-15 11:24                                                                   ` Jordan Glover
2019-08-15 17:28                                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-15 18:36                                                                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-15 23:08                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-16  9:34                                                                           ` Jordan Glover
2019-08-16  9:59                                                                             ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-16 11:33                                                                               ` Jordan Glover
2019-08-16 19:52                                                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-16 20:28                                                                                   ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-17 15:02                                                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-17 15:44                                                                                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-19  9:15                                                                                       ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-19 17:27                                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-19 17:38                                                                                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-15 18:43                                                                       ` Jordan Glover
2019-08-15 19:46                                                           ` Kees Cook [this message]
2019-08-15 23:46                                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-16  0:54                                                               ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-16  5:56                                                                 ` Song Liu
2019-08-16 21:45                                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-16 22:22                                                                   ` Christian Brauner
2019-08-17 15:08                                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-17 15:16                                                                       ` Christian Brauner
2019-08-17 15:36                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-17 15:42                                                                           ` Christian Brauner
2019-08-22 14:17                                                         ` Daniel Borkmann
2019-08-22 15:16                                                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-22 15:17                                                             ` RFC: very rough draft of a bpf permission model Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-22 23:26                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-23 23:09                                                                 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-26 22:36                                                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-27  0:05                                                                     ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-08-27  0:34                                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2019-08-22 22:48                                                           ` [PATCH v2 bpf-next 1/4] bpf: unprivileged BPF access via /dev/bpf Alexei Starovoitov

Reply instructions:

You may reply publically to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=201908151203.FE87970@keescook \
    --to=keescook@chromium.org \
    --cc=Kernel-team@fb.com \
    --cc=alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com \
    --cc=ast@kernel.org \
    --cc=bpf@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=daniel@iogearbox.net \
    --cc=gregkh@linuxfoundation.org \
    --cc=jannh@google.com \
    --cc=linux-api@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=lmb@cloudflare.com \
    --cc=luto@kernel.org \
    --cc=netdev@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=songliubraving@fb.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link

Linux-Security-Module Archive on lore.kernel.org

Archives are clonable:
	git clone --mirror https://lore.kernel.org/linux-security-module/0 linux-security-module/git/0.git

	# If you have public-inbox 1.1+ installed, you may
	# initialize and index your mirror using the following commands:
	public-inbox-init -V2 linux-security-module linux-security-module/ https://lore.kernel.org/linux-security-module \
		linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org linux-security-module@archiver.kernel.org
	public-inbox-index linux-security-module

Example config snippet for mirrors

Newsgroup available over NNTP:
	nntp://nntp.lore.kernel.org/org.kernel.vger.linux-security-module


AGPL code for this site: git clone https://public-inbox.org/ public-inbox