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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 17:16:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from d06av25.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id B839C11C050; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 17:16:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from li-f45666cc-3089-11b2-a85c-c57d1a57929f.ibm.com (unknown [9.160.25.223]) by d06av25.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 17:16:21 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dm-devel] [RFC PATCH v5 00/11] Integrity Policy Enforcement LSM (IPE) From: Mimi Zohar To: Chuck Lever , James Morris , James Bottomley Cc: Deven Bowers , Pavel Machek , Sasha Levin , snitzer@redhat.com, dm-devel@redhat.com, tyhicks@linux.microsoft.com, agk@redhat.com, Paul Moore , Jonathan Corbet , nramas@linux.microsoft.com, serge@hallyn.com, pasha.tatashin@soleen.com, Jann Horn , linux-block@vger.kernel.org, Al Viro , Jens Axboe , mdsakib@microsoft.com, open list , eparis@redhat.com, linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org, linux-audit@redhat.com, linux-fsdevel , linux-integrity@vger.kernel.org, jaskarankhurana@linux.microsoft.com Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 13:16:09 -0400 In-Reply-To: <329E8DBA-049E-4959-AFD4-9D118DEB176E@gmail.com> References: <20200728213614.586312-1-deven.desai@linux.microsoft.com> <20200802115545.GA1162@bug> <20200802140300.GA2975990@sasha-vm> <20200802143143.GB20261@amd> <1596386606.4087.20.camel@HansenPartnership.com> <1596639689.3457.17.camel@HansenPartnership.com> <329E8DBA-049E-4959-AFD4-9D118DEB176E@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.28.5 (3.28.5-12.el8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235,18.0.687 definitions=2020-08-09_09:2020-08-06,2020-08-09 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2008090130 Sender: owner-linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Sat, 2020-08-08 at 13:47 -0400, Chuck Lever wrote: > > On Aug 5, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Mimi Zohar wrote: > > If block layer integrity was enough, there wouldn't have been a need > > for fs-verity. Even fs-verity is limited to read only filesystems, > > which makes validating file integrity so much easier. From the > > beginning, we've said that fs-verity signatures should be included in > > the measurement list. (I thought someone signed on to add that support > > to IMA, but have not yet seen anything.) > > Mimi, when you and I discussed this during LSS NA 2019, I didn't fully > understand that you expected me to implement signed Merkle trees for all > filesystems. At the time, it sounded to me like you wanted signed Merkle > trees only for NFS files. Is that still the case? I definitely do not expect you to support signed Merkle trees for all filesystems. My interested is from an IMA perspective of measuring and verifying the fs-verity Merkle tree root (and header info) signature. This is independent of which filesystems support it. > > The first priority (for me, anyway) therefore is getting the ability to > move IMA metadata between NFS clients and servers shoveled into the NFS > protocol, but that's been blocked for various legal reasons. Up to now, verifying remote filesystem file integrity has been out of scope for IMA. With fs-verity file signatures I can at least grasp how remote file integrity could possibly work. I don't understand how remote file integrity with existing IMA formats could be supported. You might want to consider writing a whitepaper, which could later be used as the basis for a patch set cover letter. Mimi > > IMO we need agreement from everyone (integrity developers, FS > implementers, and Linux distributors) that a signed Merkle tree IMA > metadata format, stored in either an xattr or appended to an executable > file, will be the way forward for IMA in all filesystems.