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From: Jeff Layton <jlayton@redhat.com>
To: Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com>
Cc: "J. Bruce Fields" <bfields@fieldses.org>,
	Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org>,
	linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-nfs@vger.kernel.org, linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org, linux-xfs@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v1 00/30] fs: inode->i_version rework and optimization
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:53:42 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <1490212422.3921.1.camel@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20170321214518.GB17542@dastard>

On Wed, 2017-03-22 at 08:45 +1100, Dave Chinner wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 01:23:24PM -0400, Jeff Layton wrote:
> > On Tue, 2017-03-21 at 12:30 -0400, J. Bruce Fields wrote:
> > > - It's durable; the above comparison still works if there were reboots
> > >   between the two i_version checks.
> > > 	- I don't know how realistic this is--we may need to figure out
> > > 	  if there's a weaker guarantee that's still useful.  Do
> > > 	  filesystems actually make ctime/mtime/i_version changes
> > > 	  atomically with the changes that caused them?  What if a
> > > 	  change attribute is exposed to an NFS client but doesn't make
> > > 	  it to disk, and then that value is reused after reboot?
> > > 
> > 
> > Yeah, there could be atomicity there. If we bump i_version, we'll mark
> > the inode dirty and I think that will end up with the new i_version at
> > least being journalled before __mark_inode_dirty returns.
> 
> The change may be journalled, but it isn't guaranteed stable until
> fsync is run on the inode.
> 
> NFS server operations commit the metadata changed by a modification
> through ->commit_metadata or sync_inode_metadata() before the
> response is sent back to the client, hence guaranteeing that
> i_version changes through the NFS server are stable and durable.
> 
> This is not the case for normal operations done through the POSIX
> API - the journalling is asynchronous and the only durability
> guarantees are provided by fsync()....
> 

Ahh ok, I missed that...thanks.

I think we'll have a hard time making this fully atomic. We may end up
having to settle for something less (and doing our best to warn users
of that possibility).

One idea might be to tie the behavior to AT_FORCE/DONT_SYNC. In the
don't sync case, allow the kernel to hand out the i_version without
syncing it to disk. In the FORCE_SYNC case, do an fsync internally
before returning.

> > That said, I suppose it is possible for us to bump the counter, hand
> > that new counter value out to a NFS client and then the box crashes
> > before it makes it to the journal.
> 
> Yup, this has aways been a problem when you mix posix applications
> running on the NFS server modifying the same files as the NFS
> clients are accessing and requiring synchronisation.
> 
> > Not sure how big a problem that really is.
> 
> This coherency problem has always existed on the server side...
> 

Yes. I don't think this patchset makes anything worse in this regard.
We will need well-defined semantics here before i_version can be
exposed to userland via statx however.
-- 
Jeff Layton <jlayton@redhat.com>

  reply	other threads:[~2017-03-22 19:55 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 87+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2016-12-21 17:03 Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 01/30] lustre: don't set f_version in ll_readdir Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 02/30] ecryptfs: remove unnecessary i_version bump Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 03/30] ceph: remove the bump of i_version Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 04/30] f2fs: don't bother setting i_version Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 05/30] hpfs: don't bother with the i_version counter Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 06/30] jfs: remove initialization of " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 07/30] nilfs2: remove inode->i_version initialization Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 08/30] orangefs: remove initialization of i_version Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 09/30] reiserfs: remove unneeded i_version bump Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 10/30] ntfs: remove i_version handling Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 11/30] fs: new API for handling i_version Jeff Layton
2017-03-03 22:36   ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-03-04  0:09     ` Jeff Layton
2017-03-03 23:55   ` NeilBrown
2017-03-04  1:58     ` Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 12/30] fat: convert to new i_version API Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 13/30] affs: " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 14/30] afs: " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 15/30] btrfs: " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 16/30] exofs: switch " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 17/30] ext2: convert " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 18/30] ext4: " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 19/30] nfs: " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 20/30] nfsd: " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 21/30] ocfs2: " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 22/30] ufs: use " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 23/30] xfs: convert to " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 24/30] IMA: switch IMA over " Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 25/30] fs: add a "force" parameter to inode_inc_iversion Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 26/30] fs: only set S_VERSION when updating times if it has been queried Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 27/30] xfs: avoid setting XFS_ILOG_CORE if i_version doesn't need incrementing Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 28/30] btrfs: only dirty the inode in btrfs_update_time if something was changed Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 29/30] fs: track whether the i_version has been queried with an i_state flag Jeff Layton
2017-03-04  0:03   ` NeilBrown
2017-03-04  0:43     ` Jeff Layton
2016-12-21 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH v1 30/30] fs: convert i_version counter over to an atomic64_t Jeff Layton
2016-12-22  8:38   ` Amir Goldstein
2016-12-22 13:27     ` Jeff Layton
2017-03-04  0:00   ` NeilBrown
2016-12-22  8:45 ` [RFC PATCH v1 00/30] fs: inode->i_version rework and optimization Christoph Hellwig
2016-12-22 14:42   ` Jeff Layton
2017-03-20 21:43     ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-03-21 13:45       ` Christoph Hellwig
2017-03-21 16:30         ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-03-21 17:23           ` Jeff Layton
2017-03-21 17:37             ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-03-21 17:51               ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-03-21 18:30             ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-03-21 18:46               ` Jeff Layton
2017-03-21 19:13                 ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-03-21 21:54                   ` Jeff Layton
2017-03-29 11:15                 ` Jan Kara
2017-03-29 17:54                   ` Jeff Layton
2017-03-29 23:41                     ` Dave Chinner
2017-03-30 11:24                       ` Jeff Layton
2017-04-04 18:38                       ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-03-30  6:47                     ` Jan Kara
2017-03-30 11:11                       ` Jeff Layton
2017-03-30 16:12                         ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-03-30 18:35                           ` Jeff Layton
2017-03-30 21:11                             ` Boaz Harrosh
2017-04-04 18:31                             ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-04-05  1:43                               ` NeilBrown
2017-04-05  8:05                                 ` Jan Kara
2017-04-05 18:14                                   ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-05-11 18:59                                     ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-05-11 22:22                                       ` NeilBrown
2017-05-12 16:21                                         ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-10-30 13:21                                           ` Jeff Layton
2017-05-12  8:27                                       ` Jan Kara
2017-05-12 15:56                                         ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-05-12 11:01                                       ` Jeff Layton
2017-05-12 15:57                                         ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-04-06  1:12                                   ` NeilBrown
2017-04-06  7:22                                     ` Jan Kara
2017-04-05 17:26                                 ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-04-01 23:05                           ` Dave Chinner
2017-04-03 14:00                             ` Jan Kara
2017-04-04 12:34                               ` Dave Chinner
2017-04-04 17:53                                 ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-04-05  1:26                                 ` NeilBrown
2017-03-21 21:45             ` Dave Chinner
2017-03-22 19:53               ` Jeff Layton [this message]
2017-03-03 23:00 ` J. Bruce Fields
2017-03-04  0:53   ` Jeff Layton
2017-03-08 17:29     ` J. Bruce Fields

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