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From: James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@HansenPartnership.com>
To: Matthew Garrett <mjg59@google.com>,
	"Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@kernel.org>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Johannes Berg <johannes@sipsolutions.net>,
	Mimi Zohar <zohar@linux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
	Alan Cox <gnomes@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	"AKASHI, Takahiro" <takahiro.akashi@linaro.org>,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
	Jan Blunck <jblunck@infradead.org>,
	Julia Lawall <julia.lawall@lip6.fr>,
	Marcus Meissner <meissner@suse.de>, Gary Lin <GLin@suse.com>,
	LSM List <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-efi <linux-efi@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Firmware signing -- Re: [PATCH 00/27] security, efi: Add kernel lockdown
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 14:14:18 -0800
Message-ID: <1510697658.7703.12.camel@HansenPartnership.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CACdnJuvzPnMwsAF4mUJXCaJWQ=nCc9Yi5u3gj1A0+BsWf1Swgw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 2017-11-14 at 15:55 -0500, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Luis R. Rodriguez <mcgrof@kernel.org
> > wrote:
> > 
> > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 12:18:54PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > 
> > > This is all theoretical security masturbation. The _real_ attacks
> > > have been elsewhere.
> > 
> > In my research on this front I'll have to agree with this, in terms
> > of justification and there are only *two* arguments which I've so 
> > far have found to justify firmware signing:
> > 
> > a) If you want signed modules, you therefore should want signed
> > firmware.
> >    This however seems to be solved by using trusted boot thing,
> > given it
> >    seems trusted boot requires having firmware be signed as well.
> > (Docs
> >    would be useful to get about where in the specs this is
> > mandated,
> >    anyone?). Are there platforms that don't have trusted boot or
> > for which
> >    they don't enforce hardware checking for signed firmware for
> > which
> >    we still want to support firmware signing for? Are there
> > platforms
> >    that require and use module signing but don't and won't have a
> > trusted
> >    boot of some sort? Do we care?
> 
> TPM-backed Trusted Boot means you don't /need/ to sign anything,
> since the measurements of what you loaded will end up in the TPM. But
> signatures make it a lot easier, since you can just assert that only
> signed material will be loaded and so you only need to measure the
> kernel and the trusted keys.

Actually, I'd disagree with that quite a lot: measured boot only works
if you're attesting to something outside of your system that has the
capability for doing something about a wrong measurement.  Absent that,
measured boot has no safety whatsoever.  Secure boot, on the other
hand, can enforce not booting with elements that fail the signature
check.

The question, really, in any system, is how you want to prove security.
 In a standalone server system, measured boot is pretty useless because
you don't have an external entity to attest to, so signatures and
secure boot are really the bulwark against breaches.  In a properly
attested server cluster whose attestation controller has the ability to
reboot you, perhaps signatures and secure boot don't add that much more
value.

James

  reply index

Thread overview: 151+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-10-19 14:50 David Howells
2017-10-19 14:50 ` [PATCH 01/27] Add the ability to lock down access to the running kernel image David Howells
2017-10-20 23:19   ` James Morris
2017-10-19 14:50 ` [PATCH 02/27] Add a SysRq option to lift kernel lockdown David Howells
2017-10-19 17:20   ` Randy Dunlap
2017-10-19 22:12   ` David Howells
2017-11-07 17:39   ` Thiago Jung Bauermann
2017-11-07 22:56   ` David Howells
2017-10-19 14:50 ` [PATCH 03/27] Enforce module signatures if the kernel is locked down David Howells
2017-10-20  6:33   ` joeyli
2017-10-20 23:21   ` James Morris
2017-10-27 18:48   ` Mimi Zohar
2017-10-30 17:00   ` David Howells
2017-10-30 17:52     ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-02 17:22   ` David Howells
2017-11-02 19:13     ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-02 21:30     ` David Howells
2017-11-02 21:41       ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-02 22:01       ` David Howells
2017-11-02 22:18         ` Mimi Zohar
2017-10-19 14:51 ` [PATCH 04/27] Restrict /dev/mem and /dev/kmem when " David Howells
2017-10-20  6:37   ` joeyli
2017-10-20 23:21   ` James Morris
2017-10-19 14:51 ` [PATCH 05/27] kexec: Disable at runtime if " David Howells
2017-10-20  6:38   ` joeyli
2017-10-20 23:22   ` James Morris
2017-10-19 14:51 ` [PATCH 06/27] Copy secure_boot flag in boot params across kexec reboot David Howells
2017-10-20  6:40   ` joeyli
2017-10-19 14:51 ` [PATCH 07/27] kexec_file: Disable at runtime if securelevel has been set David Howells
2017-10-20 23:26   ` James Morris
2017-10-23 15:54   ` Mimi Zohar
2017-10-26  7:42     ` joeyli
2017-10-26 14:17       ` Mimi Zohar
2017-10-27 19:30         ` Mimi Zohar
2017-10-27 19:32         ` Mimi Zohar
2017-10-28  8:34           ` joeyli
2017-10-29 22:26             ` Mimi Zohar
2017-10-30  9:00       ` David Howells
2017-10-30 12:01         ` Mimi Zohar
2017-10-26 15:02     ` David Howells
2017-10-26 15:46       ` Mimi Zohar
2017-10-30 15:49       ` David Howells
2017-10-30 16:43         ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-02 17:00         ` David Howells
2017-10-26 14:51   ` David Howells
2017-11-02 17:29   ` David Howells
2017-10-19 14:51 ` [PATCH 08/27] hibernate: Disable when the kernel is locked down David Howells
2017-10-20  6:40   ` joeyli
2017-10-19 14:51 ` [PATCH 09/27] uswsusp: " David Howells
2017-10-20  6:41   ` joeyli
2017-10-20 23:29   ` James Morris
2017-10-19 14:51 ` [PATCH 10/27] PCI: Lock down BAR access " David Howells
2017-10-20  6:42   ` joeyli
2017-10-19 14:51 ` [PATCH 11/27] x86: Lock down IO port " David Howells
2017-10-20  6:43   ` joeyli
2017-10-19 14:52 ` [PATCH 12/27] x86/msr: Restrict MSR " David Howells
2017-10-20  6:43   ` joeyli
2017-10-20 18:09   ` Alan Cox
2017-10-20 20:48   ` David Howells
2017-10-21  4:39     ` joeyli
2017-10-23 14:49   ` David Howells
2017-10-25 14:03     ` joeyli
2017-10-19 14:52 ` [PATCH 13/27] asus-wmi: Restrict debugfs interface " David Howells
2017-10-20  6:44   ` joeyli
2017-10-19 14:52 ` [PATCH 14/27] ACPI: Limit access to custom_method " David Howells
2017-10-20  6:45   ` joeyli
2017-10-19 14:52 ` [PATCH 15/27] acpi: Ignore acpi_rsdp kernel param when the kernel has been " David Howells
2017-10-20  6:45   ` joeyli
2017-10-19 14:52 ` [PATCH 16/27] acpi: Disable ACPI table override if the kernel is " David Howells
2017-10-20  6:46   ` joeyli
2017-10-19 14:52 ` [PATCH 17/27] acpi: Disable APEI error injection " David Howells
2017-10-20  6:47   ` joeyli
2017-10-19 14:52 ` [PATCH 18/27] bpf: Restrict kernel image access functions when " David Howells
2017-10-19 22:18   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2017-10-20  2:47     ` joeyli
2017-10-20  8:08     ` David Howells
2017-10-20 15:57       ` jlee
2017-10-20 23:00         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2017-10-23 14:51         ` David Howells
2017-10-20 16:03       ` David Howells
2017-10-20 16:43         ` jlee
2017-10-23 14:53         ` David Howells
2017-10-25  7:07           ` joeyli
2017-10-19 22:48   ` David Howells
2017-10-19 23:31     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2017-11-09 17:15     ` David Howells
2017-10-19 14:52 ` [PATCH 19/27] scsi: Lock down the eata driver David Howells
2017-10-19 14:53 ` [PATCH 20/27] Prohibit PCMCIA CIS storage when the kernel is locked down David Howells
2017-10-19 14:53 ` [PATCH 21/27] Lock down TIOCSSERIAL David Howells
2017-10-19 14:53 ` [PATCH 22/27] Lock down module params that specify hardware parameters (eg. ioport) David Howells
2017-10-19 14:53 ` [PATCH 23/27] x86/mmiotrace: Lock down the testmmiotrace module David Howells
2017-10-19 14:53 ` [PATCH 24/27] debugfs: Disallow use of debugfs files when the kernel is locked down David Howells
2017-10-19 14:53 ` [PATCH 25/27] Lock down /proc/kcore David Howells
2017-10-21  2:11   ` James Morris
2017-10-23 14:56   ` David Howells
2017-10-19 14:53 ` [PATCH 26/27] efi: Add an EFI_SECURE_BOOT flag to indicate secure boot mode David Howells
2017-10-21  2:19   ` James Morris
2017-10-23 14:58   ` David Howells
2017-10-19 14:53 ` [PATCH 27/27] efi: Lock down the kernel if booted in " David Howells
2017-10-19 22:39 ` [PATCH 00/27] security, efi: Add kernel lockdown David Howells
2017-10-23 14:34 ` [PATCH 04/27] Restrict /dev/mem and /dev/kmem when the kernel is locked down David Howells
2017-10-24 10:48   ` Ethan Zhao
2017-10-24 14:56   ` David Howells
2017-11-02 22:01 ` [PATCH 00/27] security, efi: Add kernel lockdown Mimi Zohar
2017-11-02 22:04 ` Firmware signing -- " David Howells
2017-11-02 22:10   ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-07 23:07     ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2017-11-08  6:15       ` AKASHI, Takahiro
2017-11-08 19:46         ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2017-11-09  1:48           ` AKASHI, Takahiro
2017-11-09  2:17             ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-09  4:46               ` AKASHI, Takahiro
2017-11-10 13:37                 ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-11  2:32                 ` Alan Cox
2017-11-13 11:49                   ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-13 17:42                   ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2017-11-13 21:08                     ` Alan Cox
2017-12-04 19:51                       ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2017-12-07 15:32                         ` Alan Cox
2017-11-13 21:44                     ` David Howells
2017-11-13 22:09                       ` Linus Torvalds
2017-11-14  0:20                         ` Alan Cox
2017-11-14 12:21                         ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-14 12:38                           ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2017-11-14 13:17                             ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-14 17:34                           ` Linus Torvalds
2017-11-14 19:58                             ` Matthew Garrett
2017-11-14 20:18                               ` Linus Torvalds
2017-11-14 20:31                                 ` Matthew Garrett
2017-11-14 20:35                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2017-11-14 20:37                                     ` Matthew Garrett
2017-11-14 20:50                                 ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2017-11-14 20:55                                   ` Matthew Garrett
2017-11-14 22:14                                     ` James Bottomley [this message]
2017-11-14 22:17                                       ` Matthew Garrett
2017-11-14 22:31                                         ` James Bottomley
2017-11-14 22:34                                           ` Matthew Garrett
2017-11-15 11:49                                   ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-15 17:52                                     ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2017-11-15 19:56                                       ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-15 20:46                                         ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2017-11-16  0:05                                           ` Mimi Zohar
2017-12-05 10:27                                 ` Pavel Machek
2017-12-07 23:02                                   ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2017-12-08 17:11                                     ` Alan Cox
2017-11-10  1:46             ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2017-11-10 13:45               ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-13 18:50                 ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2017-11-13 19:08                   ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2017-11-08 20:01       ` Mimi Zohar
2017-11-08 20:09         ` Luis R. Rodriguez

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