RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa

RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa

[pavel]

Both suspend-to-disk and suspend-to-ram are controlled by echo <num> > /proc/acpi/sleep.
If you are using apm, i have no idea how that works.
Anyway, depending on acpi is wrong and needs to be fixed in 2.7.
--p

Re: [Swsusp-devel] RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa

[Karol Kozimor]

Thus wrote pavel@ucw.cz:
> Anyway, depending on acpi is wrong and needs to be fixed in 2.7.

Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean S4, or any suspend state in
general?
Best regards,

-- 
Karol 'sziwan' Kozimor
sziwan@hell.org.pl

Re: [Swsusp-devel] RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> Thus wrote pavel@ucw.cz:
> > Anyway, depending on acpi is wrong and needs to be fixed in 2.7.
> 
> Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean S4, or any suspend state in
> general?

It would be nice to have arch-neutral way to enter suspend to ram and
suspend to disk. Being arch-neutral, it may not depend on ACPI.

								Pavel
-- 
When do you have a heart between your knees?
[Johanka's followup: and *two* hearts?]

Re: [Swsusp-devel] RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa

[root]

> 
> Hi!
> 
> > Thus wrote pavel@ucw.cz:
> > > Anyway, depending on acpi is wrong and needs to be fixed in 2.7.
> > 
> > Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean S4, or any suspend state in
> > general?
> 
> It would be nice to have arch-neutral way to enter suspend to ram and
> suspend to disk. Being arch-neutral, it may not depend on ACPI.

Taking this in a slightly different direction.

It would be even nicer to be able to be able to migrate machine images
between machines.
How identical do machines have to be before it's no longer just a case
of copying the file?
Identical make of RAM, same CPU model, same BIOS version, with the PCI and 
USB things connected to the same slots in the same way?
Or is it a little looser?

Suspend on one machine, resume elsewhere [was Re: [Swsusp-devel] RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa]

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> > > > Anyway, depending on acpi is wrong and needs to be fixed in 2.7.
> > > 
> > > Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean S4, or any suspend state in
> > > general?
> > 
> > It would be nice to have arch-neutral way to enter suspend to ram and
> > suspend to disk. Being arch-neutral, it may not depend on ACPI.
> 
> Taking this in a slightly different direction.
> 
> It would be even nicer to be able to be able to migrate machine images
> between machines.
> How identical do machines have to be before it's no longer just a case
> of copying the file?
> Identical make of RAM, same CPU model, same BIOS version, with the PCI and 
> USB things connected to the same slots in the same way?
> Or is it a little looser?

Well, for USB maybe hotplug would handle the change, all the other
stuff should better be the same.

It probably will work even with (for example) slightly different BIOS
version, but... don't count on that.

If you want to migrate programs between machines, run UMLinux, same
config, on both machines. Ouch and you'll need swsusp for UMLinux, too
;-).
								Pavel
-- 
When do you have a heart between your knees?
[Johanka's followup: and *two* hearts?]

Re: Suspend on one machine, resume elsewhere [was Re: [Swsusp-devel] RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa]

[Ingo Oeser]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 12:40:26PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> If you want to migrate programs between machines, run UMLinux, same
> config, on both machines. Ouch and you'll need swsusp for UMLinux, too

That might be more important than you think.

Just start your Oracle in UML and swsusp. Now start your loadbalancer and start
a copy of that frozen image as soon, as the load reaches a defined limit and
kill these images again, if load goes down.

There might be even more interesting scenarios like this.

Regards

Ingo Oeser

Re: Suspend on one machine, resume elsewhere [was Re: [Swsusp-devel] RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa]

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> > If you want to migrate programs between machines, run UMLinux, same
> > config, on both machines. Ouch and you'll need swsusp for UMLinux, too
> 
> That might be more important than you think.

:-). Well, it is also harder than you probably think, because UML is
*very* strange architecture and it is not at all easy to save/restore
its state. There were some patches in that area, but it never worked
(AFAIK).

> Just start your Oracle in UML and swsusp. Now start your loadbalancer and start
> a copy of that frozen image as soon, as the load reaches a defined limit and
> kill these images again, if load goes down.

Not *my* Oracle ;-).
									Pavel

-- 
When do you have a heart between your knees?
[Johanka's followup: and *two* hearts?]

Re: Suspend on one machine, resume elsewhere [was Re: [Swsusp-devel] RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa]

[Alan Cox]

On Mer, 2003-07-16 at 19:15, Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> > > If you want to migrate programs between machines, run UMLinux, same
> > > config, on both machines. Ouch and you'll need swsusp for UMLinux, too
> > 
> > That might be more important than you think.
> 
> :-). Well, it is also harder than you probably think, because UML is
> *very* strange architecture and it is not at all easy to save/restore
> its state. There were some patches in that area, but it never worked
> (AFAIK).

Would it not be a lot easier to tackle that with qemu, and teach qemu to
freeze/restore virtual machines ?

Re: Suspend on one machine, resume elsewhere [was Re: [Swsusp-devel] RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa]

[Antonio Vargas]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 08:17:24PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> On Mer, 2003-07-16 at 19:15, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > Hi!
> > 
> > > > If you want to migrate programs between machines, run UMLinux, same
> > > > config, on both machines. Ouch and you'll need swsusp for UMLinux, too
> > > 
> > > That might be more important than you think.
> > 
> > :-). Well, it is also harder than you probably think, because UML is
> > *very* strange architecture and it is not at all easy to save/restore
> > its state. There were some patches in that area, but it never worked
> > (AFAIK).
> 
> Would it not be a lot easier to tackle that with qemu, and teach qemu to
> freeze/restore virtual machines ?

AFAIK, qemu does virtual processes, but not virtual machines. Running init(1)
from qemu could be fun, anyways ;)

Greets, Antonio.
 
-- 

In fact, this is all you need to know to be
a Caveman Database Programmer:

A relational database is a big spreadsheet
that several people can update simultaneously. 

Re: Suspend on one machine, resume elsewhere [was Re: [Swsusp-devel] RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa]

[Alan Cox]

On Mer, 2003-07-16 at 23:39, Antonio Vargas wrote:
> > Would it not be a lot easier to tackle that with qemu, and teach qemu to
> > freeze/restore virtual machines ?
> 
> AFAIK, qemu does virtual processes, but not virtual machines. Running init(1)
> from qemu could be fun, anyways ;)

qemu moves on release by release. It can run an entire virtualised linux kernel
nowdays, although its performance still needs some work.

Re: Suspend on one machine, resume elsewhere [was Re: [Swsusp-devel] RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa]

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> > > Would it not be a lot easier to tackle that with qemu, and teach qemu to
> > > freeze/restore virtual machines ?
> > 
> > AFAIK, qemu does virtual processes, but not virtual machines. Running init(1)
> > from qemu could be fun, anyways ;)
> 
> qemu moves on release by release. It can run an entire virtualised linux kernel
> nowdays, although its performance still needs some work.

I guess qemu is way too slow for this.
									Pavel
-- 
When do you have a heart between your knees?
[Johanka's followup: and *two* hearts?]

Re: Suspend on one machine, resume elsewhere [was Re: [Swsusp-devel] RE:Re: Thoughts wanted on merging Softwa]

[Alan Cox]

On Iau, 2003-07-17 at 17:29, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > qemu moves on release by release. It can run an entire virtualised linux kernel
> > nowdays, although its performance still needs some work.
> 
> I guess qemu is way too slow for this.

Its coming in about 25% of native performance so certainly has a way to go yet

Re: Suspend on one machine, resume elsewhere

[Jan Rychter]

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>>>>> "Pavel" == Pavel Machek <pavel@suse.cz> writes:
 Pavel> Hi!
 > If you want to migrate programs between machines, run UMLinux, same
 > config, on both machines. Ouch and you'll need swsusp for UMLinux,
 > too
 >>
 >> That might be more important than you think.

 Pavel> :-). Well, it is also harder than you probably think, because
 Pavel> UML is *very* strange architecture and it is not at all easy to
 Pavel> save/restore its state. There were some patches in that area,
 Pavel> but it never worked (AFAIK).

... but there are many people who dream about swsusp for UMLinux.

Particularly some laptop users who want to suspend (at least the most
critical long-running applications) and/or find Linux way too unstable
and requiring frequent reboots.

The day UMLinux gets swsusp, I'm moving my XEmacs, mozilla and some
other toys into a UML machine and staying there. Hopefully then a single
problem with a USB driver, keventd running wild, or other frequently
encountered breakage won't be taking my entire world down.

--J.

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Re: Suspend on one machine, resume elsewhere

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

>  > If you want to migrate programs between machines, run UMLinux, same
>  > config, on both machines. Ouch and you'll need swsusp for UMLinux,
>  > too
>  >>
>  >> That might be more important than you think.
> 
>  Pavel> :-). Well, it is also harder than you probably think, because
>  Pavel> UML is *very* strange architecture and it is not at all easy to
>  Pavel> save/restore its state. There were some patches in that area,
>  Pavel> but it never worked (AFAIK).
> 
> ... but there are many people who dream about swsusp for UMLinux.
> 
> Particularly some laptop users who want to suspend (at least the most
> critical long-running applications) and/or find Linux way too unstable
> and requiring frequent reboots.
> 
> The day UMLinux gets swsusp, I'm moving my XEmacs, mozilla and some
> other toys into a UML machine and staying there. Hopefully then a single
> problem with a USB driver, keventd running wild, or other frequently
> encountered breakage won't be taking my entire world down.

Well, then you may as well help porting swsusp to UML ;-).

OTOH, single problem with suspend *will* then bring your entire world
down :-(. You would be able to rollback, through.
								Pavel
-- 
When do you have a heart between your knees?
[Johanka's followup: and *two* hearts?]

Re: Suspend on one machine, resume elsewhere

[Jan Rychter]

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>>>>> "Pavel" == Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz>:
 Pavel> Hi!
 > If you want to migrate programs between machines, run UMLinux, same
 > config, on both machines. Ouch and you'll need swsusp for UMLinux,
 > too
 >
 > That might be more important than you think.
 >>
 Pavel> :-). Well, it is also harder than you probably think, because
 Pavel> UML is *very* strange architecture and it is not at all easy to
 Pavel> save/restore its state. There were some patches in that area,
 Pavel> but it never worked (AFAIK).
 >>
 >> ... but there are many people who dream about swsusp for UMLinux.
 >>
 >> Particularly some laptop users who want to suspend (at least the
 >> most critical long-running applications) and/or find Linux way too
 >> unstable and requiring frequent reboots.
 >>
 >> The day UMLinux gets swsusp, I'm moving my XEmacs, mozilla and some
 >> other toys into a UML machine and staying there. Hopefully then a
 >> single problem with a USB driver, keventd running wild, or other
 >> frequently encountered breakage won't be taking my entire world
 >> down.

 Pavel> Well, then you may as well help porting swsusp to UML ;-).

 Pavel> OTOH, single problem with suspend *will* then bring your entire
 Pavel> world down :-(. You would be able to rollback, through.  

But that's significantly better than any USB problem or any ALSA problem
or any ACPI problem bringing down my entire world, which is the current
situation with Linux 2.4.

I have the impression that the core developers are unaware of the fact
of how unstable Linux has become, particularly on laptops. I guess if
you do kernel work and reboot often, you never notice that. Besides,
doing stability work is "unfashionable"...

--J. (duly trying to report all bugs encountered)

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Re: Suspend on one machine, resume elsewhere

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> I have the impression that the core developers are unaware of the fact
> of how unstable Linux has become, particularly on laptops. I guess if
> you do kernel work and reboot often, you never notice that. Besides,
> doing stability work is "unfashionable"...
> 
> --J. (duly trying to report all bugs encountered)

Well, for laptops thats not enough. Everyone sees problems,
but too little people fix them. There are too many brands of those
notebooks with different quirks each. :-(


-- 
				Pavel
Written on sharp zaurus, because my Velo1 broke. If you have Velo you don't need...