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* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
@ 2003-07-20 17:24 John Bradford
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: John Bradford @ 2003-07-20 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: john, vonbrand; +Cc: linux-kernel

> >                                                              We are
> > discussing what parts of the Hurd and GNU Mach contain code derived
> > from Linux.  That's actually quite interesting, and on-topic.
>
> Why? Are you planing to take anything from Hurd? Or complain that they
> (legally!) are taking GPLed code and use it elsewhere? In the fist case,
> discussion about the _technical_ merit of the code to swipe is on-topic,
> all else isn't. The second case is none of your business, (unless you wrote
> the code and did not GPL it).

I'm certaily _not_ going to complain that code has been taken from
Linux - as you pointed out, that is perfectly legal.

The use of the Linux drivers in the Hurd is the closest thing[1] we've
got to a fork[2] of the Linux kernel.

So, yes, I am interested in seeing if they have done anything better
than we have, or have investigated possibilities we haven't.

John.

[1] I am _NOT_ saying that the Hurd is a fork of Linux, but that it's
about the only codebase which took Linux kernel code, and has let it
evolve separately from mainline over a number of years.  OK, the Vax
port has lived outside of mainline for a number of years too, but
that's mainly architecture specific changes.

[2] OK, ELKS is a fork of the Linux kernel, but not specifically
targeted at 386+ boxes.

John.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-20 13:23   ` Charles E. Youse
  2003-07-20 13:41     ` David Lloyd
  2003-07-20 14:09     ` Christoph Hellwig
@ 2003-07-22  4:52     ` Miles Bader
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2003-07-22  4:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Charles E. Youse
  Cc: Theodore Ts'o, John Bradford, lkml, alan, linux-kernel, lm,
	rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

"Charles E. Youse" <beef@nexuslabs.com> writes:
> > As far as I know, HURD is using ext2fs code.  It should definitely be
> > called HURD/Linux.  :-)
> 
> My understanding is that theirs is a re-implementation of ext2, not a port.

I did the original port of ext2 to the hurd, and I definitely used the
linux code.  Of course the lowest- and highest-level interfaces are all
different, so that code was replaced, but the most important `middle' part
that actually interprets the disk contents was largely the same code
(the separation is not actually so clean in practice, of course).

This is as it should be, I think...

-Miles
-- 
80% of success is just showing up.  --Woody Allen

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-20 13:49 John Bradford
@ 2003-07-20 16:59 ` Horst von Brand
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Horst von Brand @ 2003-07-20 16:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Bradford; +Cc: linux-kernel

[Cc: list chopped down to size]
John Bradford <john@grabjohn.com> said:

[...]

> This discussion is nothing to do with Bit Keeper, (anymore).

That stuff is wildly off-topic.

>                                                              We are
> discussing what parts of the Hurd and GNU Mach contain code derived
> from Linux.  That's actually quite interesting, and on-topic.

Why? Are you planing to take anything from Hurd? Or complain that they
(legally!) are taking GPLed code and use it elsewhere? In the fist case,
discussion about the _technical_ merit of the code to swipe is on-topic,
all else isn't. The second case is none of your business, (unless you wrote
the code and did not GPL it).
-- 
Horst von Brand                             vonbrand@sleipnir.valparaiso.cl
Casilla 9G, Vin~a del Mar, Chile                               +56 32 672616


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-20 14:09     ` Christoph Hellwig
@ 2003-07-20 15:27       ` Brian McGroarty
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Brian McGroarty @ 2003-07-20 15:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: linux-kernel

On Sun, Jul 20, 2003 at 03:09:05PM +0100, Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 20, 2003 at 09:23:19AM -0400, Charles E. Youse wrote:
> > My understanding is that theirs is a re-implementation of ext2, not a
> > port.
> 
> There's large part taken directly from Linux but the higher level
> parts are of course totally different.  Due to the GNU Obsfuc^H^H^H^H^HStyle
> it's not easy to diff, though..

So put both through the same code beautifier to normalize
formatting. Use ed to search/replace all non-C keywords with 'xxx' if
you think variables or function names are different well.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-20 13:23   ` Charles E. Youse
  2003-07-20 13:41     ` David Lloyd
@ 2003-07-20 14:09     ` Christoph Hellwig
  2003-07-20 15:27       ` Brian McGroarty
  2003-07-22  4:52     ` Miles Bader
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Christoph Hellwig @ 2003-07-20 14:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Charles E. Youse
  Cc: Theodore Ts'o, John Bradford, lkml, alan, linux-kernel, lm,
	rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

On Sun, Jul 20, 2003 at 09:23:19AM -0400, Charles E. Youse wrote:
> My understanding is that theirs is a re-implementation of ext2, not a
> port.

There's large part taken directly from Linux but the higher level
parts are of course totally different.  Due to the GNU Obsfuc^H^H^H^H^HStyle
it's not easy to diff, though..


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
@ 2003-07-20 13:49 John Bradford
  2003-07-20 16:59 ` Horst von Brand
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: John Bradford @ 2003-07-20 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: beef, lloy0076
  Cc: alan, john, linux-kernel, lkml, lm, rms, tytso, Valdis.Kletnieks

>  * bitkeeper (because it's a better system than anything open source) vs
>    cvs wars are tedious

This discussion is nothing to do with Bit Keeper, (anymore).  We are
discussing what parts of the Hurd and GNU Mach contain code derived
from Linux.  That's actually quite interesting, and on-topic.

John.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-20 13:23   ` Charles E. Youse
@ 2003-07-20 13:41     ` David Lloyd
  2003-07-20 14:09     ` Christoph Hellwig
  2003-07-22  4:52     ` Miles Bader
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: David Lloyd @ 2003-07-20 13:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Charles E. Youse
  Cc: tytso, john, lkml, alan, linux-kernel, lm, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Heh,

> My understanding is that theirs is a re-implementation of ext2, not a
> port.

Who cares about the truth? It's GNU/Linux, Linux/HURD, GATES/Linux or
whatever...

*sigh*

These:

 * bitkeeper (because it's a better system than anything open source) vs
   cvs wars are tedious

 * RMS can do what he wants to do

Why let the truth get in the way of, well, the truth?

- -- 
Who now has the strength to stand against
 the armies of Isengard and Mordor?

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FhUeFnDJrzGWGRQRRBFx6+A=
=u+ir
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-20  0:07 ` Theodore Ts'o
@ 2003-07-20 13:23   ` Charles E. Youse
  2003-07-20 13:41     ` David Lloyd
                       ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Charles E. Youse @ 2003-07-20 13:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Theodore Ts'o
  Cc: John Bradford, lkml, alan, linux-kernel, lm, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks


On Sat, 19 Jul 2003, Theodore Ts'o wrote:

> As far as I know, HURD is using ext2fs code.  It should definitely be
> called HURD/Linux.  :-)

My understanding is that theirs is a re-implementation of ext2, not a
port.

C.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 22:33               ` Roman Zippel
@ 2003-07-20  6:35                 ` Andre Hedrick
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Andre Hedrick @ 2003-07-20  6:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Roman Zippel
  Cc: Larry McVoy, Ga?l Le Mignot, Christian Reichert, John Bradford,
	lkml, linux-kernel, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks


Roman,

Could you correct "FREE" to "FREEDOM"?
Current trends point to FREE from CHOICE, and not FREEDOM to CHOOSE.

CannonBall!  Splash!!

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Roman Zippel wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003, Larry McVoy wrote:
> 
> > > Stop lying. No one at the GNU project ever claimed a code to be his if
> > > he didn't  write it. 
> > 
> > Nonsense.  Go look at the set of code actually funded by the FSF and it
> > is tiny.  The FSF tries to get everyone to sign over their copyright to
> > the FSF so they can "protect" the code and then they rename it to GNU
> > this that or the other thing.
> 
> Larry, you've proven enough now, that you don't understand the concept of 
> free software. You can stop now. Thanks.
> 
> bye, Roman
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 15:16 ` Linux Kernel Mailing List
@ 2003-07-20  6:32   ` Andre Hedrick
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Andre Hedrick @ 2003-07-20  6:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Linux Kernel Mailing List
  Cc: john, alan, linux-kernel, lm, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks


Did somebody mention IDE ?

Where?

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003, Linux Kernel Mailing List wrote:

> >> >> If everyone spent the time replacing bitkeeper instead of beating
> >> up Larry they'd get a lot further.
> >> > Linux isn't the only free operating system in existance, and
> >> although BK seems to suit the requirements of a lot of Linux
> >> developers, that doesn't mean that it meets the requirements of
> >> other free OS
> >> > development teams.
> >> > I strongly suspect that we'll see a free SCM developed after a few
> >> more years of HURD development, for example.
> >> > Doesn't mean we'll switch to it, though, we haven't switched to my
> >> bug database, have we?  :-).
> >> > John.
> >>
> >> Given that large chunks of HURD come from Linux, please refer to it as
> >> Linux/HURD.
> >
> > What HURD code comes from Linux?  GNU/Mach uses code from Linux, but not
> > HURD as far as I know.
> >
> 
> Hi John!
>   Go take a look at their networking, and IDE code.
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> This email was sent using SquirrelMail.
>    "Webmail for nuts!"
> http://squirrelmail.org/
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 15:03 John Bradford
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2003-07-19 15:16 ` Linux Kernel Mailing List
@ 2003-07-20  0:07 ` Theodore Ts'o
  2003-07-20 13:23   ` Charles E. Youse
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Theodore Ts'o @ 2003-07-20  0:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Bradford; +Cc: lkml, alan, linux-kernel, lm, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 04:03:55PM +0100, John Bradford wrote:
> > Given that large chunks of HURD come from Linux, please refer to it as
> > Linux/HURD.
> 
> What HURD code comes from Linux?  GNU/Mach uses code from Linux, but
> not HURD as far as I know.

As far as I know, HURD is using ext2fs code.  It should definitely be
called HURD/Linux.  :-)

						- Ted

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 17:46       ` Gaël Le Mignot
  2003-07-19 18:12         ` Larry McVoy
  2003-07-19 18:58         ` Zwane Mwaikambo
@ 2003-07-19 22:42         ` Greg KH
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Greg KH @ 2003-07-19 22:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gaël Le Mignot
  Cc: Larry McVoy, Christian Reichert, John Bradford, lkml,
	linux-kernel, lm, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 07:46:54PM +0200, Gaël Le Mignot wrote:
>  > Drivers and networking account for about 50% of the total lines of code.
>  > The bulk of the work in any operating system is typically drivers.  The
>  > generic part of Linux (non-driver, non-file system) is tiny compared to 
>  > the rest.
> 
> Maybe  for  you,  an  OS  is  drivers.  For  me,  it's  a  design,  an
> architecture, a  philosophy, and a way  to defend a value  that is not
> important for you: Freedom.

Heh, let's see how well your OS works in the real world without those
drivers :)

greg k-h

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 22:03             ` Larry McVoy
  2003-07-19 22:23               ` Alan Cox
@ 2003-07-19 22:33               ` Roman Zippel
  2003-07-20  6:35                 ` Andre Hedrick
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Roman Zippel @ 2003-07-19 22:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy
  Cc: Ga?l Le Mignot, Christian Reichert, John Bradford, lkml,
	linux-kernel, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

Hi,

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003, Larry McVoy wrote:

> > Stop lying. No one at the GNU project ever claimed a code to be his if
> > he didn't  write it. 
> 
> Nonsense.  Go look at the set of code actually funded by the FSF and it
> is tiny.  The FSF tries to get everyone to sign over their copyright to
> the FSF so they can "protect" the code and then they rename it to GNU
> this that or the other thing.

Larry, you've proven enough now, that you don't understand the concept of 
free software. You can stop now. Thanks.

bye, Roman


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 22:03             ` Larry McVoy
@ 2003-07-19 22:23               ` Alan Cox
  2003-07-19 22:33               ` Roman Zippel
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Alan Cox @ 2003-07-19 22:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy
  Cc: Ga?l Le Mignot, Christian Reichert, John Bradford, lkml,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

On Sad, 2003-07-19 at 23:03, Larry McVoy wrote:
> guess than less than 1% of it was paid for by the FSF.  The rest of it
> is all stuff they slapped their name on after convincing people to sign
> over copyrights.

       The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
        When his work is done,
        the people say, "Amazing:
        we did it, all by ourselves!"           -- Lao-tzu

Linus great achievement was making Linux happen, not writing it. The FSF
likewise.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 20:05           ` Gaël Le Mignot
  2003-07-19 20:28             ` Valdis.Kletnieks
@ 2003-07-19 22:03             ` Larry McVoy
  2003-07-19 22:23               ` Alan Cox
  2003-07-19 22:33               ` Roman Zippel
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2003-07-19 22:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ga?l Le Mignot
  Cc: Larry McVoy, Christian Reichert, John Bradford, lkml,
	linux-kernel, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

> Stop lying. No one at the GNU project ever claimed a code to be his if
> he didn't  write it. 

Nonsense.  Go look at the set of code actually funded by the FSF and it
is tiny.  The FSF tries to get everyone to sign over their copyright to
the FSF so they can "protect" the code and then they rename it to GNU
this that or the other thing.  Start reading those copyrights you are
talking about, of the set of things described as GNU something, I would
guess than less than 1% of it was paid for by the FSF.  The rest of it
is all stuff they slapped their name on after convincing people to sign
over copyrights.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy              lm at bitmover.com          http://www.bitmover.com/lm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 20:05           ` Gaël Le Mignot
@ 2003-07-19 20:28             ` Valdis.Kletnieks
  2003-07-19 22:03             ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Valdis.Kletnieks @ 2003-07-19 20:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gaël Le Mignot; +Cc: linux-kernel

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 637 bytes --]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:05:12 +0200, =?iso-8859-1?q?Ga=EBl_Le_Mignot?= said:
> Stop lying. No one at the GNU project ever claimed a code to be his if
> he didn't  write it.

Oh. *NOW* I see.  You don't actually *CLAIM* it's your code, you just
rename it in a misleading manner to create the impression.

"Yes, we asked the author to rename it GNU/Wombat, even though the GNU
project didn't actually do anything other than GNU/Rename it and then GNU/Borg it..."

I think you need to call the guys in Redmond, and ask if they could please
use the name 'GNU/Innovation"....

(And yes, I *used* to have a lot of respect for the GNU crew....)

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 226 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 18:45             ` Larry McVoy
@ 2003-07-19 20:07               ` Gaël Le Mignot
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Gaël Le Mignot @ 2003-07-19 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy
  Cc: Christoph Hellwig, Larry McVoy, Christian Reichert,
	John Bradford, lkml, linux-kernel, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

 > Mach is kinda on the bloated side, I always questioned the wisdom of
 > the GNU HURD being based on Mach, seemed like a bad call.  But then,
 > unless you have an extremely well controlled dev team, any micro kernel
 > is a bad call, it's going to bloat out.

If you  were documenting  yourself a bit  instead of  trolling, you'll
notice that's the GNU Hurd is not based on Mach. The GNU Hurd tries to
be micro-kernel independant, and will be ported to other microkernels,
like L4 Version 4.

And  if you  look a  bit  in the  history, you'll  notice that  second
generation  micro-kernels  (like  L4)  were  not  available,  or  even
designed, at the time Mach was chosen as the first microkernel to make
the Hurd runs on.

-- 
Gael Le Mignot "Kilobug" - kilobug@nerim.net - http://kilobug.free.fr
GSM         : 06.71.47.18.22 (in France)   ICQ UIN   : 7299959
Fingerprint : 1F2C 9804 7505 79DF 95E6 7323 B66B F67B 7103 C5DA

Member of HurdFr: http://hurdfr.org - The GNU Hurd: http://hurd.gnu.org

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 18:12         ` Larry McVoy
  2003-07-19 18:41           ` Christoph Hellwig
@ 2003-07-19 20:05           ` Gaël Le Mignot
  2003-07-19 20:28             ` Valdis.Kletnieks
  2003-07-19 22:03             ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Gaël Le Mignot @ 2003-07-19 20:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy
  Cc: Larry McVoy, Christian Reichert, John Bradford, lkml,
	linux-kernel, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks


 > On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 07:46:54PM +0200, Ga?l Le Mignot wrote:
 >> Hello Larry!
 >> 
 >> Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:23:11 -0700, you wrote: 
 >> 
 >> >> - GNU/Hurd, the  whole systems, is  actually GNU tools  (libc, linker,
 >> >> ...)  on top  of the  GNU Hurd  (set of  servers) and  the  GNU Mach
 >> >> microkernel.
 >> 
 >> > Mach wasn't written by GNU, it's a BSD based kernel
 >> 
 >> Totally wrong. You're confusing the  Mach operating system (with UX, a
 >> BSD-server on top of the  Mach micro-kernel) and the Mach micro-kernel
 >> itself.

 > The microkernel part of any reasonable microkernel is tiny.  The QNX 
 > microkernel used to fit in a 4K instruction cache.  To say that the
 > microkernel is the operating system is ludicrous, that's like say
 > this series of 5 instructions which happen to get run a lot are the
 > whole program.

You completly missed the point.

The part  use by the  GNU Hurd is  only the Mach microkernel,  not the
Mach operating system in a whole.

 >> > pried apart into chunks by people at CMU.
 >> 
 >> GNU Mach is  a modified version of OSF Mach  which is modified version
 >> of CMU Mach.

 > Whatever.  That's your label.  Personally, I despise this business of
 > taking someone else's code and renaming it.  It's not GNU code, the
 > GNU people didn't write it.

We did  it with  the agreement  of the original  authors, and  then we
changed it.   Should we call our  modified version with  the same name
than the original one ? That would be bad, indeed !

 >> Maybe  for  you,  an  OS  is  drivers.  For  me,  it's  a  design,  an
 >> architecture, a  philosophy, and a way  to defend a value  that is not
 >> important for you: Freedom.

 > I've got a shelf of OS texts, probably close to 90% of all the OS texts
 > written and I don't recall any of them teaching that you should take other
 > people's code, rename it, and claim it as your own in the name of freedom.

Stop lying. No one at the GNU project ever claimed a code to be his if
he didn't  write it. Just look in  any header file, and  you'll se the
copyright entries intact.  And we always say everywhere  that GNU Mach
is a fork of OSF Mach.

 >> > If the Hurd gets its drivers from Linux then it should rightfully be called
 >> > Linux/HURD (or Linux/HURD/GNU).
 >> 
 >> Stop trolling, thank you.

 > Hey, you want to spout nonsense then be prepared to be challenged.  I'm
 > just responding to something that is obviously incorrect, that's not
 > trolling, that's setting the record straight.  

You're just  writing a lot  of incorrect statements,  insulting people
(yes, you're  calling the GNU  project "thieves"), and  not correcting
anything, since you just answer completly outside the subject.

-- 
Gael Le Mignot "Kilobug" - kilobug@nerim.net - http://kilobug.free.fr
GSM         : 06.71.47.18.22 (in France)   ICQ UIN   : 7299959
Fingerprint : 1F2C 9804 7505 79DF 95E6 7323 B66B F67B 7103 C5DA

Member of HurdFr: http://hurdfr.org - The GNU Hurd: http://hurd.gnu.org

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 17:46       ` Gaël Le Mignot
  2003-07-19 18:12         ` Larry McVoy
@ 2003-07-19 18:58         ` Zwane Mwaikambo
  2003-07-19 22:42         ` Greg KH
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Zwane Mwaikambo @ 2003-07-19 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gaël Le Mignot
  Cc: Larry McVoy, Christian Reichert, John Bradford, lkml,
	linux-kernel, lm, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003, Gaël Le Mignot wrote:

> Maybe  for  you,  an  OS  is  drivers.  For  me,  it's  a  design,  an
> architecture, a  philosophy, and a way  to defend a value  that is not
> important for you: Freedom.

Intriguing, quasi-religious/political OS blabbering of sorts..

> Stop trolling, thank you.

Pot .. kettle .. black. Please take this to the Hurd mailing lists, 
perhaps it could spruce up the activity a bit.

-- 
function.linuxpower.ca

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 18:41           ` Christoph Hellwig
@ 2003-07-19 18:45             ` Larry McVoy
  2003-07-19 20:07               ` Gaël Le Mignot
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2003-07-19 18:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Christoph Hellwig, Ga?l Le Mignot, Larry McVoy,
	Christian Reichert, John Bradford, lkml, linux-kernel, rms,
	Valdis.Kletnieks

On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 07:41:23PM +0100, Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 11:12:49AM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > The microkernel part of any reasonable microkernel is tiny.
> 
> And who says Mach is a reasonable microkernel :)

Yup, more like a maxikernel :)

That was my reaction on reading the code years ago and it hasn't changed.
I used to know one of the main guys who did the QNX microkernel (Dan
Hildebrandt, RIP 1998) and he talked about how a real microkernel was
never touched by more than 3 people and each of them spent as much
time removing stuff as adding it.

Mach is kinda on the bloated side, I always questioned the wisdom of
the GNU HURD being based on Mach, seemed like a bad call.  But then,
unless you have an extremely well controlled dev team, any micro kernel
is a bad call, it's going to bloat out.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy              lm at bitmover.com          http://www.bitmover.com/lm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 18:12         ` Larry McVoy
@ 2003-07-19 18:41           ` Christoph Hellwig
  2003-07-19 18:45             ` Larry McVoy
  2003-07-19 20:05           ` Gaël Le Mignot
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Christoph Hellwig @ 2003-07-19 18:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy, Ga?l Le Mignot, Larry McVoy, Christian Reichert,
	John Bradford, lkml, linux-kernel, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 11:12:49AM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> The microkernel part of any reasonable microkernel is tiny.

And who says Mach is a reasonable microkernel :)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 17:46       ` Gaël Le Mignot
@ 2003-07-19 18:12         ` Larry McVoy
  2003-07-19 18:41           ` Christoph Hellwig
  2003-07-19 20:05           ` Gaël Le Mignot
  2003-07-19 18:58         ` Zwane Mwaikambo
  2003-07-19 22:42         ` Greg KH
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2003-07-19 18:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ga?l Le Mignot
  Cc: Larry McVoy, Christian Reichert, John Bradford, lkml,
	linux-kernel, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 07:46:54PM +0200, Ga?l Le Mignot wrote:
> Hello Larry!
> 
> Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:23:11 -0700, you wrote: 
> 
>  >> - GNU/Hurd, the  whole systems, is  actually GNU tools  (libc, linker,
>  >> ...)  on top  of the  GNU Hurd  (set of  servers) and  the  GNU Mach
>  >> microkernel.
> 
>  > Mach wasn't written by GNU, it's a BSD based kernel
> 
> Totally wrong. You're confusing the  Mach operating system (with UX, a
> BSD-server on top of the  Mach micro-kernel) and the Mach micro-kernel
> itself.

The microkernel part of any reasonable microkernel is tiny.  The QNX 
microkernel used to fit in a 4K instruction cache.  To say that the
microkernel is the operating system is ludicrous, that's like say
this series of 5 instructions which happen to get run a lot are the
whole program.

Without the BSD part, you had no operating system, no devices, no nothing.
What you had was a mechanism which can context switch, something that 
every first year OS student has written (or should have).

I stand behind the statement and I've read all the Mach papers, all
the Mach code, and lectured on it at little places like Stanford
University.  I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

> > pried apart into chunks by people at CMU.
> 
> GNU Mach is  a modified version of OSF Mach  which is modified version
> of CMU Mach.

Whatever.  That's your label.  Personally, I despise this business of
taking someone else's code and renaming it.  It's not GNU code, the
GNU people didn't write it.

>  > Drivers and networking account for about 50% of the total lines of code.
>  > The bulk of the work in any operating system is typically drivers.  The
>  > generic part of Linux (non-driver, non-file system) is tiny compared to 
>  > the rest.
> 
> Maybe  for  you,  an  OS  is  drivers.  For  me,  it's  a  design,  an
> architecture, a  philosophy, and a way  to defend a value  that is not
> important for you: Freedom.

I've got a shelf of OS texts, probably close to 90% of all the OS texts
written and I don't recall any of them teaching that you should take other
people's code, rename it, and claim it as your own in the name of freedom.

>  > If the Hurd gets its drivers from Linux then it should rightfully be called
>  > Linux/HURD (or Linux/HURD/GNU).
> 
> Stop trolling, thank you.

Hey, you want to spout nonsense then be prepared to be challenged.  I'm
just responding to something that is obviously incorrect, that's not
trolling, that's setting the record straight.  I think it was Dave Miller
who told me the other night that an unchallenged incorrect statement 
becomes true by default and I agree.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy              lm at bitmover.com          http://www.bitmover.com/lm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 17:23     ` Larry McVoy
@ 2003-07-19 17:46       ` Gaël Le Mignot
  2003-07-19 18:12         ` Larry McVoy
                           ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Gaël Le Mignot @ 2003-07-19 17:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy
  Cc: Christian Reichert, John Bradford, lkml, linux-kernel, lm, rms,
	Valdis.Kletnieks

Hello Larry!

Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:23:11 -0700, you wrote: 

 >> - GNU/Hurd, the  whole systems, is  actually GNU tools  (libc, linker,
 >> ...)  on top  of the  GNU Hurd  (set of  servers) and  the  GNU Mach
 >> microkernel.

 > Mach wasn't written by GNU, it's a BSD based kernel

Totally wrong. You're confusing the  Mach operating system (with UX, a
BSD-server on top of the  Mach micro-kernel) and the Mach micro-kernel
itself.

> pried apart into chunks by people at CMU.

GNU Mach is  a modified version of OSF Mach  which is modified version
of CMU Mach.

 > Drivers and networking account for about 50% of the total lines of code.
 > The bulk of the work in any operating system is typically drivers.  The
 > generic part of Linux (non-driver, non-file system) is tiny compared to 
 > the rest.

Maybe  for  you,  an  OS  is  drivers.  For  me,  it's  a  design,  an
architecture, a  philosophy, and a way  to defend a value  that is not
important for you: Freedom.

 > If the Hurd gets its drivers from Linux then it should rightfully be called
 > Linux/HURD (or Linux/HURD/GNU).

Stop trolling, thank you.

-- 
Gael Le Mignot "Kilobug" - kilobug@nerim.net - http://kilobug.free.fr
GSM         : 06.71.47.18.22 (in France)   ICQ UIN   : 7299959
Fingerprint : 1F2C 9804 7505 79DF 95E6 7323 B66B F67B 7103 C5DA

Member of HurdFr: http://hurdfr.org - The GNU Hurd: http://hurd.gnu.org

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 17:09   ` Gaël Le Mignot
@ 2003-07-19 17:23     ` Larry McVoy
  2003-07-19 17:46       ` Gaël Le Mignot
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2003-07-19 17:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ga?l Le Mignot
  Cc: Christian Reichert, John Bradford, lkml, linux-kernel, lm, rms,
	Valdis.Kletnieks

> - GNU/Hurd, the  whole systems, is  actually GNU tools  (libc, linker,
>   ...)  on top  of the  GNU Hurd  (set of  servers) and  the  GNU Mach
>   microkernel.

Mach wasn't written by GNU, it's a BSD based kernel pried apart into chunks
by people at CMU.

> - GNU Mach 1.x uses drivers from Linux 2.0.36 (IIRC)
> 
> - GNU  Mach 2.0  (actually 1.9,  as a  beta version),  uses  the OSKit
>   framework, and such drivers from Linux 2.2.12 
> 
> - pfinet (our  TCP/IP server)  comes from Linux  2.0 IP stack
> 
> I'm not aware  of other use of Linux code inside  the Hurd project, or
> even inside the GNU project, but there may be.

Drivers and networking account for about 50% of the total lines of code.
The bulk of the work in any operating system is typically drivers.  The
generic part of Linux (non-driver, non-file system) is tiny compared to 
the rest.

If the Hurd gets its drivers from Linux then it should rightfully be called
Linux/HURD (or Linux/HURD/GNU).

work /tmp/linux-2.5$ bk -rnet cat | wc -l
326411
work /tmp/linux-2.5$ bk -rdrivers cat | wc -l
2605850
work /tmp/linux-2.5$ bk -r cat | wc -l
6618524
-- 
---
Larry McVoy              lm at bitmover.com          http://www.bitmover.com/lm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 15:02 ` Christian Reichert
@ 2003-07-19 17:09   ` Gaël Le Mignot
  2003-07-19 17:23     ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Gaël Le Mignot @ 2003-07-19 17:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Christian Reichert
  Cc: John Bradford, lkml, linux-kernel, lm, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

Hello Christian!

19 Jul 2003 17:02:41 +0200, you wrote: 

 > On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 17:03, John Bradford wrote:
 >> > Given that large chunks of HURD come from Linux, please refer to it as
 >> > Linux/HURD.
 >> 
 >> What HURD code comes from Linux?  GNU/Mach uses code from Linux, but
 >> not HURD as far as I know.

 > Neither to my knowledge -

 > GNU/HURD uses GNU/MACH as the microkernel (and GNU/MACH uses Linux 2.0
 > drivers), but they are actually thinking of switching to another MACH
 > implementation once it's stable.

To be more exact:

- GNU/Hurd, the  whole systems, is  actually GNU tools  (libc, linker,
  ...)  on top  of the  GNU Hurd  (set of  servers) and  the  GNU Mach
  microkernel.

- GNU Mach 1.x uses drivers from Linux 2.0.36 (IIRC)

- GNU  Mach 2.0  (actually 1.9,  as a  beta version),  uses  the OSKit
  framework, and such drivers from Linux 2.2.12 (but nearly any driver
  for Linux  2.2 can  be easily ported)  or FreeBSD (I  don't remember
  which version, we actually use more Linux drivers).

- In the future, we'll probably use  the L4 microkernel. On top of L4,
  we'll have  to implement user space drivers.   That'ld probably take
  time, so  we may reuse Linux  drivers with glue code  as a temporary
  solution.

- pfinet (our  TCP/IP server)  comes from Linux  2.0 IP stack,  but we
  need a rewrite for that (first  because Linux 2.0 stack's is not the
  best in  the world ;) and  then because kernel-space  code runned in
  user-space with glue code isn't either fast nor flexible).

I'm not aware  of other use of Linux code inside  the Hurd project, or
even inside the GNU project, but there may be.

-- 
Gael Le Mignot "Kilobug" - kilobug@nerim.net - http://kilobug.free.fr
GSM         : 06.71.47.18.22 (in France)   ICQ UIN   : 7299959
Fingerprint : 1F2C 9804 7505 79DF 95E6 7323 B66B F67B 7103 C5DA

Member of HurdFr: http://hurdfr.org - The GNU Hurd: http://hurd.gnu.org

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 15:03 John Bradford
  2003-07-19 15:02 ` Christian Reichert
  2003-07-19 15:04 ` Christoph Hellwig
@ 2003-07-19 15:16 ` Linux Kernel Mailing List
  2003-07-20  6:32   ` Andre Hedrick
  2003-07-20  0:07 ` Theodore Ts'o
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Linux Kernel Mailing List @ 2003-07-19 15:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: john; +Cc: lkml, alan, linux-kernel, lm, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

>> >> If everyone spent the time replacing bitkeeper instead of beating
>> up Larry they'd get a lot further.
>> > Linux isn't the only free operating system in existance, and
>> although BK seems to suit the requirements of a lot of Linux
>> developers, that doesn't mean that it meets the requirements of
>> other free OS
>> > development teams.
>> > I strongly suspect that we'll see a free SCM developed after a few
>> more years of HURD development, for example.
>> > Doesn't mean we'll switch to it, though, we haven't switched to my
>> bug database, have we?  :-).
>> > John.
>>
>> Given that large chunks of HURD come from Linux, please refer to it as
>> Linux/HURD.
>
> What HURD code comes from Linux?  GNU/Mach uses code from Linux, but not
> HURD as far as I know.
>

Hi John!
  Go take a look at their networking, and IDE code.


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 15:03 John Bradford
  2003-07-19 15:02 ` Christian Reichert
@ 2003-07-19 15:04 ` Christoph Hellwig
  2003-07-19 15:16 ` Linux Kernel Mailing List
  2003-07-20  0:07 ` Theodore Ts'o
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Christoph Hellwig @ 2003-07-19 15:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Bradford; +Cc: lkml, alan, linux-kernel, lm, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 04:03:55PM +0100, John Bradford wrote:
> What HURD code comes from Linux?  GNU/Mach uses code from Linux, but
> not HURD as far as I know.

the networking code at least (aka pfinet)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
@ 2003-07-19 15:03 John Bradford
  2003-07-19 15:02 ` Christian Reichert
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: John Bradford @ 2003-07-19 15:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: john, lkml; +Cc: alan, linux-kernel, lm, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

> >> If everyone spent the time replacing bitkeeper instead of beating up
> >> Larry they'd get a lot further.
> > Linux isn't the only free operating system in existance, and although BK
> > seems to suit the requirements of a lot of Linux developers, that
> > doesn't mean that it meets the requirements of other free OS
> > development teams.
> > I strongly suspect that we'll see a free SCM developed after a few more
> > years of HURD development, for example.
> > Doesn't mean we'll switch to it, though, we haven't switched to my bug
> > database, have we?  :-).
> > John.
>
> Given that large chunks of HURD come from Linux, please refer to it as
> Linux/HURD.

What HURD code comes from Linux?  GNU/Mach uses code from Linux, but
not HURD as far as I know.

John.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 15:03 John Bradford
@ 2003-07-19 15:02 ` Christian Reichert
  2003-07-19 17:09   ` Gaël Le Mignot
  2003-07-19 15:04 ` Christoph Hellwig
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Christian Reichert @ 2003-07-19 15:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Bradford; +Cc: lkml, linux-kernel, lm, rms, Valdis.Kletnieks

On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 17:03, John Bradford wrote:

> > Given that large chunks of HURD come from Linux, please refer to it as
> > Linux/HURD.
> 
> What HURD code comes from Linux?  GNU/Mach uses code from Linux, but
> not HURD as far as I know.

Neither to my knowledge -

GNU/HURD uses GNU/MACH as the microkernel (and GNU/MACH uses Linux 2.0
drivers), but they are actually thinking of switching to another MACH
implementation once it's stable.

Cheers,
    Chris



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD
  2003-07-19 10:33 Bitkeeper John Bradford
@ 2003-07-19 14:00 ` Linux Kernel Mailing List
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Linux Kernel Mailing List @ 2003-07-19 14:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: john; +Cc: alan, Valdis.Kletnieks, linux-kernel, lm, rms

>> If everyone spent the time replacing bitkeeper instead of beating up
>> Larry they'd get a lot further.
> Linux isn't the only free operating system in existance, and although BK
> seems to suit the requirements of a lot of Linux developers, that
> doesn't mean that it meets the requirements of other free OS
> development teams.
> I strongly suspect that we'll see a free SCM developed after a few more
> years of HURD development, for example.
> Doesn't mean we'll switch to it, though, we haven't switched to my bug
> database, have we?  :-).
> John.

Given that large chunks of HURD come from Linux, please refer to it as
Linux/HURD.


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http://squirrelmail.org/



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2003-07-22  4:39 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 30+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2003-07-20 17:24 [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD John Bradford
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-07-20 13:49 John Bradford
2003-07-20 16:59 ` Horst von Brand
2003-07-19 15:03 John Bradford
2003-07-19 15:02 ` Christian Reichert
2003-07-19 17:09   ` Gaël Le Mignot
2003-07-19 17:23     ` Larry McVoy
2003-07-19 17:46       ` Gaël Le Mignot
2003-07-19 18:12         ` Larry McVoy
2003-07-19 18:41           ` Christoph Hellwig
2003-07-19 18:45             ` Larry McVoy
2003-07-19 20:07               ` Gaël Le Mignot
2003-07-19 20:05           ` Gaël Le Mignot
2003-07-19 20:28             ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-07-19 22:03             ` Larry McVoy
2003-07-19 22:23               ` Alan Cox
2003-07-19 22:33               ` Roman Zippel
2003-07-20  6:35                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-07-19 18:58         ` Zwane Mwaikambo
2003-07-19 22:42         ` Greg KH
2003-07-19 15:04 ` Christoph Hellwig
2003-07-19 15:16 ` Linux Kernel Mailing List
2003-07-20  6:32   ` Andre Hedrick
2003-07-20  0:07 ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-07-20 13:23   ` Charles E. Youse
2003-07-20 13:41     ` David Lloyd
2003-07-20 14:09     ` Christoph Hellwig
2003-07-20 15:27       ` Brian McGroarty
2003-07-22  4:52     ` Miles Bader
2003-07-19 10:33 Bitkeeper John Bradford
2003-07-19 14:00 ` [OT] HURD vs Linux/HURD Linux Kernel Mailing List

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