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From: Rob Landley <rob@landley.net>
To: Andre Hedrick <andre@linux-ide.org>
Cc: hzhong@cisco.com, "'Larry McVoy'" <lm@bitmover.com>,
	"'Linus Torvalds'" <torvalds@osdl.org>,
	"'Arjan van de Ven'" <arjanv@redhat.com>,
	Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu,
	"'Kendall Bennett'" <KendallB@scitechsoft.com>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Linux GPL and binary module exception clause?
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:59:57 -0600	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <200312111559.57215.rob@landley.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10312111318300.3805-100000@master.linux-ide.org>

On Thursday 11 December 2003 15:20, Andre Hedrick wrote:
> Rob,
>
> Help me out?  Who is cloning what ?
>
> I am talking about original works, to talking about talking somebody's
> stuff out of the kernel, hacking it up and distributing the work as an
> original (that is clearly a derived work).
>
> So your arguement is bogus, try again.

If you'd read the message, you might have noticed that I was talking about why 
web browser plugins may be considered to be different from kernel modules.

The fact you personally were off in a corner talking about little green men 
from mars is remarkably irrelevant to what I wrote to Hua Zhong (who I'm 
fairly certain is not you.  His english is better.)

I have no intention of "trying again" because I wasn't talking to you in the 
first place.  (I don't find what you have to say on IP issues particularly 
interesting, and don't read the ones that aren't cc'd to me...)  Neither of 
us are lawyers.  The difference is that I know it.

Rob

> Cheers,
>
> Andre Hedrick
> LAD Storage Consulting Group
>
> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Rob Landley wrote:
> > On Thursday 11 December 2003 02:11, Hua Zhong wrote:
> > > > For one thing, the plugin was made by someone without access
> > > > to Netscape or IE's source code, using a documented interface
> > > > that contained sufficient information to do the job without access
> > > > to that source code.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, it matters.
> > >
> > > _What_ matters?
> > >
> > > Open source? (if you write a plugin for an opensource
> > > kernel/application, you are not plugin anymore and you are derived
> > > work.) I am sure you don't mean it.
> > >
> > > Documented interface? Hey, there are sources which are the best
> > > documentation. :-)
> >
> > If you write software by referring to documentation, the barrier for it
> > being a derivative work is higher than if you write it by looking at
> > another implementation.
> >
> > > Seriously, even if I accept that there is never an intent to support a
> > > stable ABI for kernel modules, some vendor can easily claim that "we
> > > support a stable ABI, so write kernel modules for the kernel we
> > > distribute".
> > >
> > > Anything can prevent that? I cannot see GPL disallow it.
> > >
> > > So OK, Linus and other kernel developers never intended to provide a
> > > stable ABI, but someone else could. The original author's intent is
> > > never relevant anymore. This is the goodness of opensource, isn't it?
> >
> > Once upon a time, Compaq did a clean-room clone of IBM's BIOS.  Group 1
> > studied the original bios and wrote up a spec, and group 2 wrote a new
> > bios from that spec, and group 1 never spoke to group 2, and all of this
> > was extensively documented so that when IBM sued them they proved in
> > court that their BIOS wasn't derived from IBM's.  (Of course compaq used
> > vigin programmers fresh out of college who'd never seen a PC before,
> > which was a lot easier to do in 1983...)
> >
> > I didn't make this up.  This was a really big deal 20 years ago.  It
> > happened, and it mattered, and people cared that they created a fresh
> > implementation without seeing the original code, entirely from a written
> > specification that was not a derivative work of the first implementation,
> > so no matter how similar the second implementation was (hand-coded
> > assembly performing the same functions on the same processor in the same
> > amount of space), it could not be considered a derivative work.
> >
> > This was a strong enough defense to beat IBM's lawyers, who were trying
> > to claim that Compaq's new BIOS WAS a derivative work...
> >
> > Rob


  reply	other threads:[~2003-12-11 22:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 275+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2003-12-04 23:50 Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Paul Adams
2003-12-05  0:07 ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-05  2:07   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 15:57     ` Thierry Vignaud
2003-12-05  4:23   ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-05  4:42     ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-05  8:23       ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-05 17:19         ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 18:42           ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2003-12-05  5:13     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-05  5:26       ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05  6:34       ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05  6:58         ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 11:16           ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 13:34             ` Anders Karlsson
2003-12-05 14:03             ` Ryan Anderson
2003-12-05 16:38               ` Shawn Willden
2003-12-05 16:54                 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-12-05 17:03                   ` Shawn Willden
2003-12-05 22:36                   ` Derek Fawcus
2003-12-05 17:34                 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 17:35               ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05 18:12                 ` Filip Van Raemdonck
2003-12-05 18:37                   ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05 19:56                     ` 'Filip Van Raemdonck'
2003-12-05 20:26                       ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-06  0:08                         ` Filip Van Raemdonck
2003-12-05 19:55               ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 20:14                 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 21:16                   ` Shawn Willden
2003-12-09  0:17                   ` Kernel 2.6-test10 on an Opteron Ananda Bhattacharya
2003-12-09 12:16                     ` Petr Sebor
2003-12-09 20:31                     ` bill davidsen
2003-12-08 15:38                 ` Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 14:59             ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 19:15               ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 18:44           ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 19:09             ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-05 19:22               ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-12-10 13:52                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 15:18                   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 15:32                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 16:21                       ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 16:34                         ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 17:10                           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 17:25                             ` Chris Friesen
2003-12-10 17:58                               ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 17:56                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 18:02                               ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:08                                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 18:17                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:38                                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 19:15                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-11  0:50                                         ` Driver API (was Re: Linux GPL and binary module exception clause?) Hannu Savolainen
2003-12-11  4:01                                           ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-11 15:47                                             ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-11 22:47                                               ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-11 10:06                                           ` viro
2003-12-11 12:47                                             ` Hannu Savolainen
2003-12-11 13:33                                               ` viro
2003-12-11 14:54                                                 ` Hannu Savolainen
2003-12-10 18:37                                   ` Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-12-10 19:51                                 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-10 20:09                                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11  1:24                               ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-11  7:43                               ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11  8:11                                 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-11  8:37                                   ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 18:22                                     ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-11 21:20                                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 21:59                                       ` Rob Landley [this message]
2003-12-11 22:42                                         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12  5:39                                           ` Rob Landley
2003-12-12  7:21                                             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12  7:39                                               ` Rob Landley
2003-12-12  7:56                                                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12  9:27                                                   ` Rob Landley
2003-12-10 18:14                             ` David Schwartz
2003-12-10 18:21                               ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 19:48                             ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-11  7:32                           ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 14:03                             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-12-10 22:49                         ` Oliver Hunt
2003-12-10 17:15                     ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-10 17:42                       ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 19:32                         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 22:43                           ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-10 22:49                             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 23:11                           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 23:24                             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 19:48                         ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 21:15                           ` viro
2003-12-10 22:36                             ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 23:13                               ` viro
2003-12-11 15:29                               ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-11 18:47                                 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-11 18:55                                   ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-11 22:18                                   ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 22:18                           ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 22:25                             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 23:38                             ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-11  1:03                               ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-11 14:46                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-10 23:39                             ` Andrea Arcangeli
2003-12-11 17:44                             ` Robin Rosenberg
2003-12-11 17:56                               ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-11 18:16                                 ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-11 18:50                                 ` Mihai RUSU
2003-12-11 18:37                               ` David Schwartz
2003-12-11 12:04                         ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 17:49                       ` Jörn Engel
2003-12-10 18:16                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-05 19:25               ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 19:26             ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 15:50         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-05 18:44         ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-06  0:02           ` Maciej Zenczykowski
2003-12-05 18:44       ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 13:16       ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 15:02         ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 20:37           ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-12-11 16:26             ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 13:52   ` Richard B. Johnson
2003-12-05  0:09 ` Oliver Hunt
2003-12-05 10:55   ` Russell King
2003-12-05  0:46 ` Erik Andersen
2003-12-05  0:58   ` Zwane Mwaikambo
2003-12-05  1:03     ` Erik Andersen
2003-12-05  1:21       ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-05  1:30         ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05  1:58         ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06  3:00           ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06  4:39             ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06  5:14               ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06  5:48                 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06 17:14                   ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06 15:38                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-12-06 16:47                   ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-06 21:30                   ` David Schwartz
2003-12-06 21:42                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-07 13:01               ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-07 22:11                 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-06 14:13             ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-06 17:50               ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06 21:19                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-12-06 21:45                   ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-08 16:34                 ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-11 12:37           ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-11 12:42             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 12:58               ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-12 20:26                 ` Brian Beattie
2003-12-13 12:03                   ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-13 15:04                     ` jeff millar
2003-12-13 17:27                     ` Gene Heskett
2003-12-14  0:51                     ` Linux, Inc. (Re: Linux GPL and binary module exception clause?) Andre Hedrick
2003-12-14  1:06                       ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-14  2:40                         ` David S. Miller
2003-12-14  2:37                           ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-14  6:55                         ` Rob Landley
2003-12-14  6:35                       ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 13:54             ` Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-11 15:12               ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-05  3:58         ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-05  1:58   ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05  4:58     ` Erik Andersen
2003-12-05  6:34       ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05  6:43         ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05  2:07   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05  7:39     ` Stefan Smietanowski
2003-12-05  1:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 12:57   ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 15:14     ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 15:25       ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 18:58         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12 19:40     ` Pavel Machek
2003-12-12 22:08       ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12 23:06         ` Jamie Lokier
2003-12-12 23:43         ` Pavel Machek
2003-12-15 18:01     ` Adam Sampson
2003-12-15 21:12       ` Andre Hedrick
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-12-18  9:12 Randy Zagar
2003-12-18  9:51 ` Thorsten Glaser
2003-12-18  9:55 ` Daniel Newby
2003-12-18 14:24 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-19  7:56 ` Andre Hedrick
     [not found] <fa.go3ahvi.h68o2q@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found] ` <fa.nk4vl6d.g0181@ifi.uio.no>
2003-12-12  3:03   ` walt
2003-12-10 19:06 Manfred Spraul
2003-12-09  6:20 Paul Zimmerman
2003-12-09 13:22 ` Andrew Walrond
2003-12-09 14:12   ` Dale Whitchurch
2003-12-09 20:47     ` bill davidsen
2003-12-09 23:47     ` David Schwartz
2003-12-10 14:30     ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 14:17 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 16:10   ` Richard B. Johnson
2003-12-10 17:58   ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 15:01     ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-07  2:34 gary ng
2003-12-08 16:08 ` Alex Bennee
2003-12-08 16:26   ` gary ng
2003-12-06 12:31 Matt
2003-12-05 22:43 gary ng
2003-12-05 23:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06  0:07   ` gary ng
     [not found] <732BE51FE9901143AE04411A11CC465602F155F3@evtexc02.tc.fluke.com>
2003-12-05 17:05 ` David Dyck
2003-12-05 18:51   ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 11:35 Adam J. Richter
2003-12-05 11:25 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 15:36   ` Valdis.Kletnieks
     [not found] <YPep.5Y5.21@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <Z3AK-Qw-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
2003-12-04 17:05   ` Ihar 'Philips' Filipau
2003-12-04 17:57     ` Thierry Vignaud
2003-12-05 11:11     ` Helge Hafting
2003-12-05 12:12       ` Stefan Smietanowski
2003-12-05 14:51         ` Ihar 'Philips' Filipau
2003-12-03 23:22 Jason Kingsland
2003-12-03 22:58 Xose Vazquez Perez
2003-12-03 21:31 Kendall Bennett
2003-12-03 21:47 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-12-03 23:33   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-03 22:11 ` Richard B. Johnson
2003-12-03 23:33   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-03 23:40   ` bill davidsen
2003-12-04  0:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-04  0:23   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-04  6:25     ` Karim Yaghmour
2003-12-06  0:08       ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-06  2:28         ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06  9:55           ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-06 10:51             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-12-08 18:58         ` Karim Yaghmour
2003-12-09 20:26           ` bill davidsen
2003-12-09 21:46             ` Craig Milo Rogers
2003-12-12 11:36               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-12-12 15:27                 ` Bill Davidsen
2003-12-10 14:09         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 14:25           ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 14:46             ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 15:05               ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 15:11                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 15:49                   ` Aron Rubin
2003-12-10 15:59                   ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 16:06                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 16:22                       ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 18:38                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-04 19:24     ` viro
2003-12-13  0:11       ` Nix
2003-12-13  0:25         ` viro
2003-12-13 15:01           ` Nix
2003-12-04  0:29   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-04  0:52   ` Aaron Smith
2003-12-04  1:47     ` David Lang
2003-12-04  1:20       ` Aaron Smith
2003-12-04  4:48       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-12-04 15:21   ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-04 15:58     ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05  1:58     ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05  2:43       ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-05 13:09         ` Pat Erley
2003-12-05 18:44         ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 13:06         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-05 13:49       ` Maciej Zenczykowski
2003-12-10 13:43         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 16:07           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:33             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 19:20               ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 20:15                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 21:04                   ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-10 21:05                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 21:17                       ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-10 22:59                         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11  0:58                           ` Rob Love
2003-12-11 10:56                           ` Xavier Bestel
2003-12-11  7:26             ` Rob Landley
2003-12-05 17:29   ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-05 17:50     ` Linus Torvalds

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