From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S262333AbUK3Ubo (ORCPT ); Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:31:44 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S262324AbUK3Ubm (ORCPT ); Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:31:42 -0500 Received: from box.punkt.pl ([217.8.180.66]:7685 "HELO box.punkt.pl") by vger.kernel.org with SMTP id S262307AbUK3UbM (ORCPT ); Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:31:12 -0500 From: Mariusz Mazur To: Linus Torvalds Subject: Re: [RFC] Splitting kernel headers and deprecating __KERNEL__ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:28:53 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 Cc: David Woodhouse , Alexandre Oliva , Paul Mackerras , Greg KH , Matthew Wilcox , David Howells , hch@infradead.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, libc-hacker@sources.redhat.com References: <19865.1101395592@redhat.com> <1101837135.26071.380.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200411302128.53583.mmazur@kernel.pl> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On wtorek 30 listopad 2004 19:21, Linus Torvalds wrote: > You call _that_ specific? > > Hell no. You need to do it without breaking existing uses, as noted > earlier, and it's not specific at all. "all user visible parts" is a big > undertaking, if you can't make it smaller than that, then forget about it. > > Basic rule in kernel engineering: you don't just rewrite the world. You do > it in incremental independent steps. > > Any mtd-specific rewrite is obviously a go. Facts: - current __KERNEL__ stuff is crap; just check any distro what they're using - either some kind of userland headers or a patched version of kernel headers - "You don't use kernel headers in userland!!" small print: except this, this, and that dir, which are userland friendly That's quite schizophrenic. Specific problems: - glibc has a copy of eg. networking definitions (mostly lots of numbers for different protocols); if userland wants to use something that's not in glibc already, it has to include linux' headers; which more often than not causes conflicts with glibc - the above problem is present in allmost all headers that have a glibc and linux version - glibc uses linux headers for getting ABI stuff in... dunno... four? five cases? And *everything* else ends up getting duplicated. People in this thread are trying to force you to agree to a specific location where stuff like the above mentioned mtd can go to and to start accepting patches (afaik there were a number of patches trying to introduce that userland dir - all of them ignored). That's (mostly) all. -- In the year eighty five ten God is gonna shake his mighty head He'll either say, "I'm pleased where man has been" Or tear it down, and start again