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From: Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>
To: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org>
Cc: Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
	Joe Korty <joe.korty@ccur.com>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
	Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org>,
	linux-arch@vger.kernel.org,
	Linux Kernel Development <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	matthew@wil.cx, arjan@infradead.org,
	Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org>,
	Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	nikita@clusterfs.com, pj@sgi.com, dhowells@redhat.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/19] MUTEX: Introduce simple mutex implementation
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:08:54 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20051219160854.GA7934@elte.hu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0512162323140.3698@g5.osdl.org>


* Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> wrote:

> I really can't think of any blocking kernel lock where priority 
> inheritance would make _any_ sense at all. Please give me an example.

you are completely right, most of the blocking kernel locks we have in 
Linux are an extremely poor candidate for priority inheritance. Most of 
them are totally noncritical, or cover so long codepaths that 'latency 
guarantees' and 'priority inheritance' make little sense for them.

the reason why we still have transformed most of the stock semaphore 
users to generic mutexes in the -rt kernel is mostly because i wanted to 
have _one_ central lock implementation. Firstly, it makes alot of sense 
to consolidate code on embedded platforms anyway. Secondly, it was much 
easier to implement (and validate) one robust locking primitive, than to 
implement 5 separate primitives. The fact that this also made semaphores 
PI-able is just a side-effect, with little to no practical relevance.

maybe ->i_sem is one notable exception: it is often held in critical 
codepaths, and it's really hard for even the most-well-controlled RT app 
to achieve _total_ isolation from the 'unprivileged' filesystem space.  
So occasional 'resource sharing' in form of hitting an i_sem of another 
task may still occur, and PI can at least reduce the worst-case cost 
somehow. (even though i_sem codepaths are by no means deterministic!)

so in the -rt kernel, every semaphore, rw-semaphore, spinlock, rwlock 
and seqlock [and in the latest -rt patches, every futex too] is 
abstracted off a central generic mutex type, which mutex is blocking and 
supports priority queueing and priority inheritance. It also has an 
extensive debugging framework, which we didnt want to duplicate for 
every separate lock object.

we also have a facility in the -rt kernel that traces the worst-case 
latency path of critical applications (the 'latency tracer'), when mixed 
with non-critical workloads, so we have quite good experience about what 
kind of locks make a difference and what kind of locks make no 
difference.

we also definitely know that priority inheritance done over _all_ these 
lock objects makes a very real quality difference in practice, resulting 
in real-time apps experiencing much lower worst-case latencies than 
under the stock kernel. It is true that you could live without priority 
inheritance, in cases were the RT app can be rewritten to have totally 
separated resources, but in practice that is only possible for the 
simplest applications.

	Ingo

  parent reply	other threads:[~2005-12-19 16:09 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 249+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2005-12-12 23:45 [PATCH 1/19] MUTEX: Introduce simple mutex implementation David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 2/19] MUTEX: i386 arch mutex David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 8/19] MUTEX: Drivers I-K changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 7/19] MUTEX: Drivers F-H changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 6/19] MUTEX: Drivers A-E changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 3/19] MUTEX: x86_64 arch mutex David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 5/19] MUTEX: Core kernel changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 4/19] MUTEX: FRV arch mutex David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 15/19] MUTEX: Second set of include changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 10/19] MUTEX: Drivers N-P changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 9/19] MUTEX: Drivers L-M changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 13/19] MUTEX: Filesystem changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 14/19] MUTEX: First set of include changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 12/19] MUTEX: Drivers T-Z changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 11/19] MUTEX: Drivers Q-S changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 18/19] MUTEX: Security changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 17/19] MUTEX: Networking changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 16/19] MUTEX: IPC changes David Howells
2005-12-12 23:45 ` [PATCH 19/19] MUTEX: Sound changes David Howells
2005-12-13  0:13 ` [PATCH 1/19] MUTEX: Introduce simple mutex implementation Nick Piggin
2005-12-13  0:19 ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-13  0:19 ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-13  7:54   ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13  7:58     ` Andi Kleen
2005-12-13  8:42       ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-13  8:49         ` Andi Kleen
2005-12-13  9:01           ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-13  9:02             ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-13 10:07               ` Jakub Jelinek
2005-12-13 10:11                 ` Andi Kleen
2005-12-13 10:15                   ` Jakub Jelinek
2005-12-13 10:25                   ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-14 10:46               ` Russell King
2005-12-13  9:05             ` Andi Kleen
2005-12-13  9:15               ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-13  9:24                 ` Andi Kleen
2005-12-13  9:44                   ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-13  9:49                     ` Andi Kleen
2005-12-13 10:28                   ` Andreas Schwab
2005-12-13 10:30                     ` Andi Kleen
2005-12-13 12:33                   ` Matthew Wilcox
2005-12-13 22:18               ` Adrian Bunk
2005-12-13 22:25                 ` Andi Kleen
2005-12-13 22:32                   ` Adrian Bunk
2005-12-13  9:11             ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13  9:04           ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-12-13  9:13             ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13 10:11             ` Jakub Jelinek
2005-12-13 10:19               ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-12-13 10:27                 ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-15  4:53                 ` Miles Bader
2005-12-15  5:05                   ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-13  9:09           ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13  9:21             ` Andi Kleen
2005-12-13 16:16           ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-13 21:56             ` Using C99 in the kernel was " Andi Kleen
2005-12-13 23:05               ` Al Viro
2005-12-13 23:41                 ` Andi Kleen
2005-12-13  9:03         ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-12-13  9:14           ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-13  9:21             ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-12-13 10:31             ` drivers/scsi/sd.c gcc-2.95.3 Alexey Dobriyan
2005-12-13  8:00     ` [PATCH 1/19] MUTEX: Introduce simple mutex implementation Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-13  9:03       ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13  9:09         ` Andi Kleen
2005-12-13  9:34           ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13 14:33             ` Mark Lord
2005-12-13 14:45               ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-13  9:37           ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13  9:19         ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-13  9:02     ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-12-13  9:39       ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13 10:00         ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13 17:40           ` Paul Jackson
2005-12-13 18:34           ` David Howells
2005-12-13 22:31             ` Paul Jackson
2005-12-14 11:02             ` David Howells
2005-12-14 11:12             ` David Howells
2005-12-14 11:18               ` Alan Cox
2005-12-14 12:35               ` David Howells
2005-12-14 13:58                 ` Thomas Gleixner
2005-12-14 23:40                   ` Mark Lord
2005-12-14 23:54                     ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-15 13:41                       ` Nikita Danilov
2005-12-15 14:56                         ` Alan Cox
2005-12-15 15:52                           ` Nikita Danilov
2005-12-15 16:50                             ` Christopher Friesen
2005-12-15 20:53                               ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-15 15:55                           ` David Howells
2005-12-15 16:22                             ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2005-12-15 16:28                             ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-15 17:04                               ` Thomas Gleixner
2005-12-15 17:09                               ` Paul Jackson
2005-12-15 17:17                               ` David Howells
2005-12-15 16:51                             ` David Howells
2005-12-15 16:56                             ` Paul Jackson
2005-12-15 17:28                             ` David Howells
2005-12-15 17:48                               ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-15 18:20                                 ` Nikita Danilov
2005-12-15 20:58                                   ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-15 19:21                                 ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-15 19:38                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-15 20:28                                   ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-15 20:32                                     ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2005-12-16 21:41                                       ` Thomas Gleixner
2005-12-16 21:41                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-16 22:06                                           ` Thomas Gleixner
2005-12-16 22:19                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-16 22:32                                               ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-16 22:42                                               ` Thomas Gleixner
2005-12-16 22:41                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-16 22:49                                                   ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-16 23:29                                                   ` Thomas Gleixner
2005-12-17  0:29                                                   ` Joe Korty
2005-12-17  1:00                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-17  3:13                                                       ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-17  7:34                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-17 23:43                                                           ` Matthew Wilcox
2005-12-18  0:05                                                             ` Lee Revell
2005-12-18  0:21                                                               ` Matthew Wilcox
2005-12-18  1:25                                                                 ` Lee Revell
2005-12-22 12:27                                                             ` Bill Huey
2005-12-19 16:08                                                           ` Ingo Molnar [this message]
2005-12-22 12:40                                                           ` Bill Huey
2005-12-22 12:45                                                             ` Bill Huey
2005-12-19 23:46                                                       ` Keith Owens
2005-12-15 14:41                       ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-14 23:57                     ` Thomas Gleixner
2005-12-14 23:57                       ` Mark Lord
2005-12-15  0:10                         ` Thomas Gleixner
2005-12-15  2:46                           ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-15 15:53                           ` David Howells
2005-12-15 15:37                     ` David Howells
2005-12-15 19:28                       ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-15 20:18                         ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-15 21:28                           ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-16 22:02                           ` Thomas Gleixner
2005-12-16 10:45                         ` David Howells
2005-12-13  9:55     ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13  0:30 ` Arnd Bergmann
2005-12-13  0:57 ` Daniel Walker
2005-12-13  3:23   ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-13  2:57 ` Mark Lord
2005-12-13  3:17   ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-13  9:06   ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-12-13  9:54 ` David Howells
2005-12-13 10:13   ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13 10:34     ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13 10:37       ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13 12:47       ` Oliver Neukum
2005-12-13 13:09         ` Alan Cox
2005-12-13 13:13           ` Matthew Wilcox
2005-12-13 14:04             ` Alan Cox
2005-12-13 13:24           ` Oliver Neukum
2005-12-14  1:00   ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-14 10:54   ` David Howells
2005-12-14 11:17     ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-14 11:46     ` David Howells
2005-12-14 21:23       ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-16 12:00       ` David Howells
2005-12-16 13:16         ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-16 15:53         ` David Howells
2005-12-16 23:41           ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-16 16:02         ` David Howells
2005-12-13 10:48 ` David Howells
2005-12-13 12:39   ` Matthew Wilcox
2005-12-13 10:54 ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13 11:23 ` David Howells
2005-12-13 11:24 ` David Howells
2005-12-13 13:45   ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13 11:34 ` David Howells
2005-12-13 13:05 ` Alan Cox
2005-12-13 13:15   ` Alan Cox
2005-12-13 23:21     ` Nikita Danilov
2005-12-13 13:32 ` David Howells
2005-12-13 14:00   ` Alan Cox
2005-12-13 14:35   ` Christopher Friesen
2005-12-13 14:44     ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-13 14:59       ` Christopher Friesen
2005-12-13 15:23   ` David Howells
2005-12-15  5:24     ` Miles Bader
2005-12-13 15:39   ` David Howells
2005-12-13 16:10     ` Alan Cox
2005-12-14 10:29       ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-14 11:03         ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-14 11:03         ` Alan Cox
2005-12-14 11:08           ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-14 11:24             ` Alan Cox
2005-12-14 11:35               ` Andrew Morton
2005-12-14 11:44                 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-14 11:52                   ` Andi Kleen
2005-12-14 11:55                     ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-14 11:57                 ` David Howells
2005-12-14 12:19                   ` Jakub Jelinek
2005-12-16  1:54                   ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-16 11:02                   ` David Howells
2005-12-16 13:01                     ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-16 13:21                       ` Russell King
2005-12-16 13:41                         ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-16 13:46                         ` Linh Dang
2005-12-16 14:31                           ` Russell King
2005-12-16 15:24                             ` Linh Dang
2005-12-16 15:35                               ` Nick Piggin
2005-12-16 15:40                               ` Kyle Moffett
2005-12-16 15:49                             ` Linh Dang
2005-12-16 15:46                           ` David Howells
2005-12-16 15:58                             ` Russell King
2005-12-17 15:57                       ` Nikita Danilov
2005-12-16 16:28                     ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-16 11:30                   ` David Howells
2005-12-16 16:33                     ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-16 22:23                       ` David S. Miller
2005-12-16 22:38                         ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-16 22:53                           ` David S. Miller
2005-12-17  0:41                             ` Jesse Barnes
2005-12-17  7:10                               ` David S. Miller
2005-12-17  7:40                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-17 17:22                                   ` Jesse Barnes
2005-12-17 17:19                                 ` Jesse Barnes
2005-12-17 22:38                             ` Richard Henderson
2005-12-17 23:05                               ` David S. Miller
2005-12-14 12:17                 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-12-14 11:42               ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-12-14  8:31     ` Ingo Molnar
2005-12-13 20:04   ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-13 21:03 ` David Howells
2005-12-15 13:58 linux
2005-12-15 16:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-15 16:52   ` Erik Mouw
2005-12-15 17:23     ` Dick Streefland
2005-12-16 12:17     ` Erik Mouw
2005-12-17 10:59       ` Sander
2005-12-17 14:14         ` Douglas McNaught
2005-12-17 15:09           ` Sander
2005-12-19 10:44         ` Erik Mouw
2005-12-15 19:02   ` Nikita Danilov
2005-12-15 19:09   ` linux
2005-12-15 19:52     ` Linus Torvalds
2005-12-16  1:33       ` linux
2005-12-15 21:18     ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-15 20:52   ` Steven Rostedt
2005-12-15 17:45 Luck, Tony
2005-12-15 18:00 ` David Howells
2005-12-15 18:48 ` James Bottomley
2005-12-15 20:38 ` Jeff Dike
2005-12-15 23:45   ` Stephen Rothwell
2005-12-16 12:49 linux
2005-12-16 15:24 ` David Howells
2005-12-16 18:03   ` linux

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