From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1756868AbXFWPk0 (ORCPT ); Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:40:26 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1750881AbXFWPkU (ORCPT ); Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:40:20 -0400 Received: from outpipe-village-512-1.bc.nu ([81.2.110.250]:49771 "EHLO the-village.bc.nu" rhost-flags-OK-FAIL-OK-FAIL) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1750771AbXFWPkS (ORCPT ); Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:40:18 -0400 Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 16:46:08 +0100 From: Alan Cox To: Grozdan Nikolov Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: How innovative is Linux? Message-ID: <20070623164608.05dc5c30@the-village.bc.nu> In-Reply-To: <200706231722.26931.microchip@chello.be> References: <200706231417.16086.microchip@chello.be> <20070623154328.222a2f92@the-village.bc.nu> <200706231722.26931.microchip@chello.be> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.9.1 (GTK+ 2.10.8; i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Organization: Red Hat UK Cyf., Amberley Place, 107-111 Peascod Street, Windsor, Berkshire, SL4 1TE, Y Deyrnas Gyfunol. Cofrestrwyd yng Nghymru a Lloegr o'r rhif cofrestru 3798903 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:22:26 +0200 Grozdan Nikolov wrote: > On Saturday 23 June 2007 16:43, you wrote: > > On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 14:17:15 +0200 > > > > Grozdan Nikolov wrote: > > > Hello gentlemen and ladies. > > > > > > As a Linux user for many years now (regulars user, not a programmer), I > > > want > > > > Please do not feed the trolls, thank you > > heh, I'm not a troll, I just wanted to know what the Linux people think about > it and your perspectives on the issues, but it seems you all go hiding > instead of explaining and making a clear stand You sound like one - or very misinformed. Most of the Solaris and AIX "innovations" you mentioned are far older, other things are bogus (eg the LSB spec for Linux is based upon SuSv3 - the single unix spec), and the unix nme is payware not free for use. A few innovations that afaik first appeared the Linux kernel - Making multiple hosts appear transparently as one IP address - Futex fast hybrid locking - Single pass checksum fragment and send fragments in reverse order - Reiserfs - very innovative design, but innovation isn't neccessarily success - JFFS/JFFS2 - flash wear levelled file system avoiding all the problem patents - Loadable modules for a non-microkernel I'd argue the lack of a stable kernel internal API is also an innovation A bigger question to ask is "When is innovation good ?" The reason everyone uses ext3 or on BSD UFS/FFS is the same reason we use the paperclip today - its an extremely reliable, well understood solution to the problem space. Is every office that uses paperclips inferior - or smart ? There are also lots of big innovations in Linux donated by other organisations - from Sun NFS (The real NFS innovation was that Sun gave the spec out and let people implement it for free) through to stuff like RCU, stuff made freely available elsewhere and implemented in Linux, and tons of stuff where Linux is the one that combined them in clever and useful ways. The basis of building great free software projects is sharing and mixing, not sitting in a lab inventing something cool from scratch. Linux could have innovated its own system call interface from scratch. If so I doubt it would have caught on. Now if you want really innovative OS work go look in the lab or at projects most people have never heard of and don't run. Alan