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From: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
To: Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>
Cc: "Jörn Engel" <joern@logfs.org>, "Jeff Garzik" <jeff@garzik.org>,
	"Linus Torvalds" <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	"Peter Zijlstra" <a.p.zijlstra@chello.nl>,
	linux-mm@kvack.org,
	"Linux Kernel Mailing List" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	miklos@szeredi.hu, akpm@linux-foundation.org, neilb@suse.de,
	dgc@sgi.com, tomoki.sekiyama.qu@hitachi.com,
	nikita@clusterfs.com, trond.myklebust@fys.uio.no,
	yingchao.zhou@gmail.com, richard@rsk.demon.co.uk, david@lang.hm
Subject: Re: [PATCH 00/23] per device dirty throttling -v8
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 21:11:56 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20070804211156.5f600d80@the-village.bc.nu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20070804192130.GA25346@elte.hu>

> i use Mutt myself, on such a filesystem:
> 
>    /dev/md0 on / type ext3 (rw,noatime,nodiratime,user_xattr)
> 
> and i can see no problems, it notices new mails just fine.

In some setups it will and in others it won't. Nor is it the only
application that has this requirement. Ext3 currently is a standards
compliant file system. Turn off atime and its very non standards
compliant, turn to relatime and its not standards compliant but nobody
will break (which is good)

Either change is a big user/kernel interface change and no major vendor
targets desktop as primary market so I'm not suprised they haven't done
this. The fix is to educate them further not to break the kernel.

There are several reasons for that
-	Distros will change the least conservative stuff first so we
	have the dedicated followers of fashion finding problems first
-	Existing systems won't suddenly change behaviour and break
	(and as the catastrophic failure case is backup failure we do
	not want to break them)

People just need to know about the performance differences - very few
realise its more than a fraction of a percent. I'm sure Gentoo will use
relatime the moment anyone knows its > 5% 8)

Alan

  parent reply	other threads:[~2007-08-04 20:06 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 189+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2007-08-03 12:37 [PATCH 00/23] per device dirty throttling -v8 Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 01/23] nfs: remove congestion_end() Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 02/23] lib: percpu_counter_add Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 03/23] lib: percpu_counter variable batch Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 04/23] lib: make percpu_counter_add take s64 Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 05/23] lib: percpu_counter_set Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 06/23] lib: percpu_counter_sum_positive Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 07/23] lib: percpu_count_sum() Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 08/23] lib: percpu_counter_init error handling Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 09/23] lib: percpu_counter_init_irq Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 10/23] mm: bdi init hooks Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 11/23] containers: " Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 12/23] mtd: " Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 13/23] mtd: clean up the backing_dev_info usage Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 14/23] mtd: give mtdconcat devices their own backing_dev_info Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 15/23] mm: scalable bdi statistics counters Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 16/23] mm: count reclaimable pages per BDI Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 17/23] mm: count writeback " Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-09 19:15   ` Christoph Lameter
2007-08-09 19:23     ` Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-09 19:27       ` Christoph Lameter
2007-08-13  8:36         ` Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 18/23] mm: expose BDI statistics in sysfs Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 19/23] lib: floating proportions Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 20/23] lib: floating proportions _single Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 21/23] mm: per device dirty threshold Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 22/23] mm: dirty balancing for tasks Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 12:37 ` [PATCH 23/23] debug: sysfs files for the current ratio/size/total Peter Zijlstra
2007-08-03 22:21 ` [PATCH 00/23] per device dirty throttling -v8 Linus Torvalds
2007-08-04  6:32   ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-04  7:07     ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-04  7:44       ` david
2007-08-04 16:01         ` Ray Lee
2007-08-04 17:15           ` david
2007-08-09  5:11           ` david
2007-08-04 10:33       ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-04 16:17         ` Linus Torvalds
2007-08-04 16:37           ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-04 16:51             ` Andrew Morton
2007-08-04 16:56               ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-04 20:23                 ` Alan Cox
2007-08-04 17:02             ` Diego Calleja
2007-08-04 17:17               ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-04 17:38                 ` Diego Calleja
2007-08-04 17:51                   ` Diego Calleja
2007-08-08 10:43                 ` Karel Zak
2007-08-04 17:39             ` Linus Torvalds
2007-08-04 18:08               ` Jeff Garzik
2007-08-04 19:12                 ` Jörn Engel
2007-08-04 19:21                   ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-04 19:26                     ` Jörn Engel
2007-08-04 19:42                       ` Jörn Engel
2007-08-05 20:36                         ` Christoph Hellwig
2007-08-06 18:03                           ` Chuck Ebbert
2007-08-06 18:53                             ` Jeff Garzik
2007-08-06 19:37                             ` Alan Cox
2007-08-06 19:46                               ` Chuck Ebbert
2007-08-07  7:05                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-08 21:10                           ` Martin J. Bligh
2007-08-08 21:21                             ` Andrew Morton
2007-08-09  0:54                               ` Martin Bligh
2007-08-11 23:14                                 ` Valerie Henson
2007-08-10  0:21                               ` Bill Davidsen
2007-08-14  9:57                           ` Helge Hafting
2007-08-04 19:47                       ` Linus Torvalds
2007-08-04 19:49                         ` Linus Torvalds
2007-08-04 20:00                         ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-04 20:11                           ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-04 20:13                             ` Arjan van de Ven
2007-08-05  8:18                           ` [patch] add noatime/atime boot options, CONFIG_DEFAULT_NOATIME Ingo Molnar
2007-08-04 20:13                         ` [PATCH 00/23] per device dirty throttling -v8 Arjan van de Ven
2007-08-04 21:48                           ` Theodore Tso
2007-08-05 18:01                             ` Arjan van de Ven
2007-08-05 20:34                               ` Christoph Hellwig
     [not found]                         ` <fa.7rstQpXif2z9y2n2HD+qxLFnueg@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]                           ` <fa.6VOZrceT65Vh8CIRIta0zSg2V38@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]                             ` <fa.xcZCTa5cHDOhrcyXZ2gZbzbu7g0@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]                               ` <fa.JjZwG90x+07YaOx8h5VLN+9AL/8@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]                                 ` <fa.V9U4mAEXVjNqblhzu7GRmxif7Uw@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]                                   ` <fa.uq0BQtrgp66a08hpsF+vrqXUNC4@ifi.uio.no>
2007-08-15 18:16                                     ` david.balazic
2007-08-04 20:11                     ` Alan Cox [this message]
2007-08-04 20:28                       ` [PATCH 00/23] " Jeff Garzik
2007-08-04 21:47                         ` Alan Cox
2007-08-04 23:51                           ` Claudio Martins
2007-08-05  0:49                             ` Alan Cox
2007-08-05  7:28                               ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 10:29                                 ` Jakob Oestergaard
2007-08-05 12:46                                 ` Alan Cox
2007-08-05 12:58                                   ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 13:29                                     ` Willy Tarreau
2007-08-06  6:57                                       ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-06 13:12                                         ` Willy Tarreau
2007-08-05 14:46                               ` Theodore Tso
2007-08-05 17:55                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 17:59                                   ` Jeff Garzik
2007-08-05 18:09                                     ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 18:08                                 ` Arjan van de Ven
2007-08-07 21:20                             ` Bill Davidsen
2007-08-05  7:18                           ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-07 18:55                         ` Bill Davidsen
2007-08-07 19:35                           ` Alan Cox
2007-08-08 17:44                             ` Bill Davidsen
2007-08-04 20:28                       ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-04 20:34                         ` Arjan van de Ven
2007-08-04 21:03                         ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-04 21:51                           ` Alan Cox
2007-08-05  7:21                             ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05  7:29                               ` Andrew Morton
2007-08-05  7:39                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05  8:53                               ` Willy Tarreau
2007-08-05 14:17                                 ` Jörn Engel
2007-08-05 18:02                                   ` Arjan van de Ven
2007-08-05 18:37                                     ` Jörn Engel
2007-08-05 20:21                                       ` Jörn Engel
2007-08-05 20:33                                         ` Andrew Morton
2007-08-05 12:47                               ` Alan Cox
2007-08-05 12:56                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 18:44                               ` Dave Jones
2007-08-05 18:58                                 ` adi
2007-08-06  6:39                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-06 15:59                                   ` Dave Jones
2007-08-06 16:16                                     ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05  7:37                             ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05  9:04                               ` Jeff Garzik
2007-08-05 12:43                               ` Alan Cox
2007-08-05 12:54                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 13:37                                   ` Alan Cox
2007-08-05 18:08                                     ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 19:11                                       ` Alan Cox
2007-08-08 18:22                                       ` Bill Davidsen
2007-08-08 19:39                                         ` Jeff Garzik
2007-08-08 20:31                                           ` Bill Davidsen
2007-08-08 23:18                                           ` Alan Cox
2007-08-07 19:09                             ` Bill Davidsen
2007-08-04 21:48                         ` Alan Cox
2007-08-05  7:13                           ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 13:22                             ` Diego Calleja
2007-08-05 19:03                               ` david
2007-08-06  6:52                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-10  4:04                                 ` Bill Davidsen
2007-08-11  5:19                                   ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2007-08-06  6:58                               ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-09  0:57                             ` Greg Trounson
2007-08-09  1:26                               ` david
2007-08-09  2:33                               ` Andi Kleen
2007-08-04 22:39                         ` Ilpo Järvinen
2007-08-05 10:20                 ` Jakob Oestergaard
2007-08-05 10:42                   ` Jeff Garzik
2007-08-05 10:58                     ` Jakob Oestergaard
2007-08-05 12:46                       ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 13:46                         ` Jakob Oestergaard
2007-08-05 16:45                         ` Linus Torvalds
2007-08-05 19:09                           ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 19:22                             ` [patch] implement smarter atime updates support Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 19:28                               ` [patch] implement smarter atime updates support, v2 Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 20:42                                 ` Theodore Tso
2007-08-06  5:36                                   ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 19:53                               ` [patch] implement smarter atime updates support Arjan van de Ven
2007-08-05 20:04                                 ` Alan Cox
2007-08-05 20:22                                   ` Arjan van de Ven
2007-08-05 19:29                             ` [PATCH 00/23] per device dirty throttling -v8 Alan Cox
2007-08-05 19:32                               ` Ingo Molnar
2007-08-05 23:43                     ` David Chinner
2007-08-05  0:26             ` Andi Kleen
2007-08-05 15:00               ` Theodore Tso
2007-08-06 13:47                 ` Chris Mason
2007-08-17  0:45                 ` Dave Jones
2007-08-05 20:41               ` Christoph Hellwig
2007-08-06 10:42                 ` Andi Kleen
2007-08-16 10:18               ` Helge Hafting
2007-08-09  6:25             ` Lionel Elie Mamane
2007-08-09 15:02               ` Chuck Ebbert
2007-08-09 16:22                 ` Diego Calleja
2007-08-04 16:41           ` Andrew Morton
2007-08-04 17:26             ` Nikita Danilov
2007-08-04 19:16             ` Florian Weimer
2007-08-05  6:00               ` Andrew Morton
2007-08-05  7:57                 ` Florian Weimer
2007-08-05 20:43                   ` Christoph Hellwig
2007-08-05 22:46               ` Theodore Tso
2007-08-06  0:24               ` David Chinner
2007-08-05  0:28         ` Andi Kleen
2007-08-04 16:15       ` Linus Torvalds
2007-08-05 17:22     ` Brice Figureau
2007-08-05 22:17       ` Andi Kleen
2007-08-06  8:40         ` Brice Figureau
2007-08-14  1:44           ` Stewart Smith
2007-08-14  2:25             ` Andi Kleen
2007-08-14  7:59               ` Brice Figureau
2007-08-06 20:26 ` Miklos Szeredi
2007-08-08 12:25 ` richard kennedy
2007-08-08 13:54   ` Andi Kleen
2007-08-10  4:17     ` Bill Davidsen
2007-08-10 16:00 pointman

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